SG Dev News #2

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ID:112053
 
Apr 15 2011, 9:09 am (Edited on Apr 16 2011, 1:36 pm)
Celestial Chaos: Adventures has been released.
The next version has a shiny black HUD, as seen in the screen-shots.
Equipment systems are on the immediate to-do list, as well as the option to change your hairstyle. Don't need everyone looking exactly the same forever =P
Boy, it sure is hard to make "original" games... PS, not really.

Celestial Chaos: Guardians had a few updates a while back. One of the screen-shots shows a quick preview of the map editor, or really... just of a map edited with it. As you can see, the tiles have auto-edging, so they don't just meet up in perfectly straight horrible looking tiles.
I have decided to use an IconShare-like application for sharing Guardian maps. It will be hosted on the same hub as Guardians, so it should be easy to find and access.
I also plan on changing wave progress. So that once you reach the final wave, the enemies will start over, but be much more powerful. Instead of just being stuck on a hoard of bosses forever. Especially since people somehow seem to be surviving them...
There will also be some sort of equipment/looting systems added to Guardians, though I haven't decided yet if this equipment will provide some sort of stat boosts or special effects, or just be purely visual to customize your character.

Conversion of Bleach Eternity to Celestial Chaos: Eternity is going pretty well.
Aside from just graphical changes, and some basic renaming, there have been major changes to gameplay.
Quests now require a max of 5 kills, instead of what previously started at 10, and increased from there. Quests now give 3x the exp to make up for the lower amount of required kills.
Quests are also more grouped, and enemies more intertwined. There is no more running to an area, running back to turn in the quest, then having to repeat that same area 3 more times. This also means you will have more active quests at once.
Bounts->Tamers have had a somewhat massive reworking of their gameplay style, to make it more accessible and fun to play. Though, in my opinion, it still needs even more improvement. They also start out with a different pet, and will be able to tame any monster in the world into their pet.
For the most part, the fan-game conversion aspects of the update are complete. However, I plan on adding dynamic dungeon systems, and some sort of official PvP, before re-releasing the project. Lest we end up in the same pointlessly contented state that the game is in now.

A global assets pack for Stray Games, or more specifically, for Celestial Chaos titles, has been established. This is basically a collection of original resources (graphics, audio, modular code) that will be used between projects to cut down on development time, give a unified feel to the games, and provide consistent productive updates between all projects at once. As of now, it is being used in Neo, Adventures, Guardians, and partially in Eternity.

Maybe something won't get left out of the next BYOND and Within =P

Apr 15 2011, 9:26 am
See? The games look much better now, and you can legally profit and not get shut down. That wasn't so bad now was it?

Also, that water turf doesn't match the style of the other turfs.
Apr 15 2011, 9:32 am
EmpirezTeam wrote:
See? The games look much better now
Don't know if I agree with that

and you can legally profit and not get shut down.
Not like I was/am selling copies of the game

That wasn't so bad now was it?
No, it wasn't. It took like a week, and changed almost nothing. Which is why this entire copyright concept is idiotic, and more importantly, why all the "original" game developers around here need to get off of their high horses. If anything, designing an "original" game is easier in almost all aspects.

Also, that water turf doesn't match the style of the other turfs.
SolarOblivion made that water for BE, I made pretty much everything else. My attempts at water were going horribly, so I just gave up and used what I already had. Might go back to it someday. More or less have the same issue with trees, those ones were made by me, but they're pretty bad, and will most likely be changed at some point, when I can make decent ones.
Apr 15 2011, 10:08 am
You planning on converting DBZ HU, or is that too mired in the original IP?
Apr 15 2011, 10:23 am
Tom wrote:
You planning on converting DBZ HU, or is that too mired in the original IP?

Take a look at Celestial Chaos: Adventures! :P
Apr 15 2011, 10:29 am
I believe that is DBZ HU2. Last I spoke with Falacy, he mentioned that the original HU would be more difficult to port so I was wondering what his current stance was. It is/was a very popular game, and obviously BYOND needs more of those.
Apr 15 2011, 10:36 am
Finally! An official form of PVP on CE. I was waiting an eternity for it ;p


I actually am very glad you made the games more united. It's basically the same concepts with different forms of gameplay to suit someone's taste.
Apr 15 2011, 10:44 am
Im guessing nothing really got done on Neo?
Apr 15 2011, 11:05 am
Tom wrote:
You planning on converting DBZ HU, or is that too mired in the original IP?
Maybe. There are a few DBZ inspired concepts that would be difficult to consistently convert (like boss missions, multiple planets, and several sets of DBs), but I think the technical aspects of the game would be a much bigger issue. The code is horribly written, its a pain to generally work on, so converting it would probably be madness(!). Plus, the gameplay in HU1 is pretty fail IMO, if I was going to go through the trouble of converting it, I would probably end up rewriting half of the code and redesigning gameplay mechanics.

Rockeyx2 wrote:
Im guessing nothing really got done on Neo?
Technically, no. However, work has been done on the global assets, which will effect Neo. I've also come up with a few new gameplay concepts, like reactive combat.
Apr 15 2011, 12:22 pm
Falacy wrote:
No, it wasn't. It took like a week, and changed almost nothing. Which is why this entire copyright concept is idiotic, and more importantly, why all the "original" game developers around here need to get off of their high horses. If anything, designing an "original" game is easier in almost all aspects.

People say that BYOND needs original games but I've always said that originality isn't everything, I wrote a blog post about it recently too. BYOND needs games with original premises, so merely converting fan games to be "original" doesn't improve anything because it doesn't really change the games - same package, different wrapping paper.

You can't just lump all "original developers" into the same category. Some people do make games with original concepts. For this same reason you can't lump all "non-original developers" together too. Just because a game has graphics from another game or characters from a TV show doesn't mean it's automatically terrible - it might be more likely, but it's not automatic.

Edit: Is there any help file or documentation about Guardians? I can't tell what difference leveling up makes so I'm not sure what tipping point is for phasing out cheap, but high level, units and replacing them with better unit types.
Apr 15 2011, 12:31 pm
I agree with forum account. I hate when people say they are better than fangame developers because they made a crappy game with an "original concept." But you also can't say just because someone has a success game using there own ideas that they are "on a high horse."

Off topic: Those pillow shaded trees really bring down the quality.
Apr 15 2011, 12:46 pm
I don't have a problem with fan games, but apparently the holders of the IP do. As such, I think these "original conversions" -- as pointless as they may seem-- are a very good thing. They allow the author to freely advertise these games without fear that they could be taken down.
Apr 15 2011, 12:53 pm (Edited on Apr 15 2011, 1:03 pm)
Enzuigiri wrote:
But you also can't say just because someone has a success game using there own ideas that they are "on a high horse."
First off, practically nobody around here is using their own ideas for anything. Second, them being successful is far from the only reason such worthless idiots are perceived as acting all high and mighty. I don't know if success even filters into it at all.

Off topic: Those pillow shaded trees really bring down the quality.
They aren't pillow shaded, as far as I understand the concept. They are, however, very lamely shaded/lamely looking in general. As I said in one of my previous comments, they will most likely be replaced when I get better at making trees.

Tom wrote:
They allow the author to freely advertise these games without fear that they could be taken down.
I still have to worry about you taking my games down personally =P
Apr 15 2011, 1:04 pm (Edited on Apr 15 2011, 1:15 pm)
Tom wrote:
I don't have a problem with fan games, but apparently the holders of the IP do. As such, I think these "original conversions" -- as pointless as they may seem-- are a very good thing. They allow the author to freely advertise these games without fear that they could be taken down.

1. Only some IP holders care. Super Mario Bros Crossover uses characters and graphics from many NES games but is hosted on many websites and it's newgrounds page has almost 8 million hits. Fan games can be respectable creations that don't need to be hidden.

2. The conversion to "originality" is a neutral thing - it's not good or bad. It doesn't make the game any better. The author might have an easier time drumming up interested, but if the game's bad people won't like it any more.

Edit:
First off, practically nobody around here is using their own ideas for anything.

It sounds like you're expecting that an "original game" be something that's completely new in every way and you're upset that games like NEStalgia are considered original (it's given that designation to mean it's not a fan game) even though it uses concepts from other games.

All computer games use pre-existing concepts. Even the earliest computer games, who had so few other computer games to copy, weren't completely original. spacewar uses standard science fiction concepts and Tennis for Two is based on the actual game of tennis. As I said in the post you so nicely linked to, what makes the game original is having an original premise.
Apr 15 2011, 1:23 pm (Edited on Apr 15 2011, 1:35 pm)
Forum_account wrote:
It sounds like you're expecting that an "original game" be something that's completely new in every way
That's not necessarily the case. Fallout 3 was very similar to Oblivion, but brought so many new concepts and improvements to the table that it was hundreds of times better. Same goes for Assassin's Creed 2. Bullet storm is a FPS, but it has a ton of unique concepts and a unique art style that make it worthwhile.
The problem isn't that concepts are re-used, its when a game is made up of nothing but re-used concepts, especially when those concepts are poorly implemented.
Sure, Minecraft has an inventory, it uses standard controls, the graphics aren't amazing... but the concept of taking apart and replacing blocks to create whatever you want in a dynamically generated world, that has never been attempted before as far as I know. Its like 1,000 generations of Lego evolution. It also has an inventive/intuitive/original crafting system =P
On the other side of that, something like the general AI command system from KotOR was an original concept AFAIK. It was a bit flunky, but acceptable for a first attempt and a new idea. It was later re-invented as FF12's Gambits, to something near perfect. BioWare then attempted recreating it in Dragon Age: Origins, in which it was not only worse than their original attempt in KotOR, but compared to FF12's Gambits, I don't even consider it functional.

and you're upset that games like NEStalgia are considered original even though it uses concepts from other games.
Granted, I haven't made it more than an hour or two into NEStalgia, but I haven't seen a single original concept anywhere in that game. For that matter, I haven't seen a single good, fully implemented concept... I wouldn't say a single system of NEStalgia's lives up to the standards of the modern day gamer.

(it's given that designation to mean it's not a fan game)
Which is why the term "original" shouldn't even be used, and why I tend to put quotes around it.

All computer games use pre-existing concepts.
That is a good thing. Concepts should be re-used, and in the process, improved upon. The problem is when ALL the concepts in your game are from other games. And/or, more importantly, when those concepts that you're ripping off were done better in their original form.
Apr 15 2011, 1:34 pm
Falacy wrote:
Enzuigiri wrote:
But you also can't say just because someone has a success game using there own ideas that they are "on a high horse."
First off, practically nobody around here is using their own ideas for anything. Second, them being successful is far from the only reason such worthless idiots are perceived as acting all high and mighty. I don't know if success even filters into it at all.

Off topic: Those pillow shaded trees really bring down the quality.
They aren't pillow shaded, as far as I understand the concept. They are, however, very lamely shaded/lamely looking in general. As I said in one of my previous comments, they will most likely be replaced when I get better at making trees.

Tom wrote:
They allow the author to freely advertise these games without fear that they could be taken down.
I still have to worry about you taking my games down personally =P

That tree is super pillow shaded for starters.

If your definition of original is "Completely 100% your idea that has never been done before nor thought of by anyone else." Then nothing is original. Every game has borrowed elements from another. And let's take a quick step away from "original game creators" as a whole for a second.

We all know silk is an arrogant jackass. Silk doesn't represent everyone who makes original games(not saying you said he did you just used him as an example) Sure there are more than him that are ass-wipes(even though I'm sure hes the biggest)However that isn't a reason to look down on "original games"

Edit: Yes I have noticed NEStalgia is a rehashed version of dragon warrior. Sounds like all you want is justice for him to be labeled as a fangame =/
Apr 15 2011, 1:39 pm
Falacy wrote:
The problem is when ALL the concepts in your game are from other games.

This is where I disagree. With so many games on the market there are very few individual concepts that haven't been expressed before (whether you've played the games that originally contained the idea or not). An original idea is an idea for a new way to combine gameplay elements (even if all of the elements have been seen before).

It's like writing music. There are only so many notes you can play. An original piece of music isn't one that uses brand new notes, it's one that finds an original arrangement of existing notes.

And/or more importantly, when those concepts that you're ripping off were done better in their original form.

I think it's hard to say what's better or worse because the game is the sum of the parts. You can't point to a single RPG and say "that's the one with the best inventory system", the quality of the inventory system depends on how well it works in the game as a whole.

I haven't made it more than an hour or two into NEStalgia, but I haven't seen a single original concept anywhere in that game.

Which is because you're expecting completely original concepts instead of original ways to arrange existing concepts. That being said, I tend to agree with you. The gameplay plays it safe. It does more than Regressia when it comes to mixing ideas, but could do a lot more.

Edit:
Minecraft has an inventory, it uses standard controls, the graphics aren't amazing... but the concept of taking apart and replacing blocks to create whatever you want in a dynamically generated world, that has never been attempted before as far as I know

http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Infiniminer

Minecraft is just a unique (or somewhat unique) arrangement of existing concepts =)
Apr 15 2011, 1:40 pm
Enzuigiri wrote:
That tree is super pillow shaded for starters.
Even according to that example, the tree isn't pillow shaded, it follows a raised light source, and is supposed to show various levels of branches/leaves.

Yes I have noticed NEStalgia is a rehashed version of dragon warrior. Sounds like all you want is justice for him to be labeled as a fangame =/
I at least don't want the game featured, officially supported by Tom every 10 seconds, and/or advertised outside of BYOND. It is absolutely NOT what should be representing the BYOND software. If the best thing we can make with it is an NES game's wannabe, then why would anyone ever bother?
Apr 15 2011, 1:49 pm (Edited on Apr 15 2011, 1:59 pm)
Forum_account wrote:
I think it's hard to say what's better or worse because the game is the sum of the parts. You can't point to a single RPG and say "that's the one with the best inventory system", the quality of the inventory system depends on how well it works in the game as a whole.

The reasoning behind the systems goes into determining which is better, just as much as the systems themselves. But it is definitely possible to say which games/systems/concepts are superior, and usually definitively why.
Darkspore has the best equipment system in pretty much every way. It also has a brilliant design for healing classes - which, though it may not be the absolute best, is definitely something that should be adopted by all games and improved upon.
You can also look at it on a more specific level. GTA4 was complete crap compared to San Andreas, in pretty much every category except graphics. GTA:SA had a better story and voice acting, it had a more diverse world, it had character progression/leveling, character customization, vehicles, etc etc etc. GTA4 not only got rid of everything that made GTA:SA an amazing game, but it was full of bugs and horrible design concepts. Hell, even the camera in GTA4 doesn't work worth a crap, something that should be a primary focus of development, and a very noticeable flaw. Red Dead Redemption fixes all of GTA4's issues, which makes GTA4 look even worse, and RDR even better than GTA:SA for it.
As far as NEStalgia goes, their inventory system is unarguably inferior to one with unlimited space. Not only does is massively hinder gameplay, but I would be willing to bet that the reason its like that is because Silk doesn't want to/isn't capable of designing a scrolling HUD.
The quest system in NEStalgia is also inferior to practically any other game that has one. There are no !s or other symbols marking which NPCs have quests for you, so you have to blindly wander around talking to everybody. Then, even once you get the quests, they have practically no intelligent direction, HUD markings, map markers, or anything else intuitive, so you have to wander around lost, trying to figure out what the hell they want you to do.
On top of that, the game is missing a crap ton of common/standard features, like character names (which makes it even harder to find, or even distinqush NPCs), HUD ToolTips, intuitive/consistent controls, etc etc ETC.
Apr 15 2011, 2:00 pm
Falacy wrote:
Granted, I haven't made it more than an hour or two into NEStalgia, but I haven't seen a single original concept anywhere in that game. For that matter, I haven't seen a single good, fully implemented concept... I wouldn't say a single system of NEStalgia's lives up to the standards of the modern day gamer.

If that was the case, this game wouldn't be so successive. Obviously it DOES live up to standards of the modern day gamer, since these same gamers appreciate old style RPGs. If you honestly had any issues with games not having "original" concepts you wouldn't have made your fangames in the first place, and then to take it a step further by making money off of FUNimation's original concept.
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