To say that fan games are bad because they're not original is incorrect. Some fan games are bad, but some are good. Some original games are bad. Originality is over-emphasized on BYOND. It's important, but maybe not as important as you think...
For BYOND to be taken more seriously as a game development platform (which is necessary for attracting more quality developers) the BYOND software doesn't have to prove itself technically, the community has to prove itself creatively. PC games have way better graphics that flash games, but people still play flash games. The technical limitation doesn't stop people from making good, fun flash games. Heck, some people are entertained by playing tic-tac-toe on the back of a napkin. Even if BYOND's 2D graphics make it look a little 1992-ish, it's still got better technical ability than a napkin!
The removal of some fan games is indirectly related to the BYOND community proving its creative ability. By looking less un-creative we look more creative already, but this doesn't solve the problem entirely. We still need games that show the outside world that the BYOND community is a place for creative game developers.
But I am creative! The fan game developers will cry. I wrote the story for my game! I made the icons! the title screen! the character creation codes! I'm sorry, but that's not enough. Here's why:
Making a game is like crafting a comedy sketch. You don't need the content to be 100% original, but you do need a clever and original premise.
Comedy sketches aren't entirely original. Sketches tend to involve people who are in a familiar setting (ex: a classroom, a movie theater, an office, etc.), are wearing familar clothes, and are speaking a familiar language. The comedy writers didn't invent people, places, clothes, or the language, but they did create a clever premise which makes the sketch feel fresh.
BYOND needs games with clever premises. Kongregate and Armor Games are full of them. BYOND... not so much. A game is bad when it doesn't have an original premise. It doesn't matter if it's a fan game or not. The problem with fan games is that it's easy to make the game without having an original premise. BYOND could be a respected platform for hobby game development. It's there technically, we just need more people to show that the BYOND developer community is worth being a part of. Hiding the skeletons in the closet helps, but is only part of the solution.
Edit:
I'm surprised to see so many games are canceled and so many people talking about quitting, but at the same time I suppose this confirms my suspicion. The people who would stop working on a game instead of just removing the DBZ elements are the people who didn't have original premises. Even as a non fan game the game would be stale and boring, we won't miss these games or the people who would sit afk in them.
I figured the removal of dbz games would backfire and that the developers would instead convert their games to being original and these games, which are still just as bad, would then dominate the site. They'd be the same games but everyone would just know that the guy in orange pajamas is named "goku" even though the game doesn't come out and say it.
I'm sure some people will take this route, but luckily we have the featured games distinction to separate good games from these games. Even if some of the would-be DBZ games turn out to be decent as non-fan games, the featured games list can't fill up with these games.
ID:111384
 Mar 30 2011, 11:13 am (Edited on Mar 31 2011, 3:54 am)
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I'm mainly against fan-games because I'm simply tired of seeing them.
Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball. Give it a freaking rest. There is more to game development( and life ) than Dragon Ball. | |
Not all fangames are anime games. I have made and released (even if one is still being worked on) two fangames, though one may end up being original once I release the version with original sounds and music. These two projects are Classic Tron BYOND Edition and Disky Challenge. The latter is my variation of Chip's Challenge; the reason why I been calling it a fangame as well. :P
Of course ya already know Classic Tron BYOND Edition got labeled a fangame a while back since it was derived from an official game. Not all fangames deal with the anime genre. I could explain more in the near future. | |
Original games are spectacular and I'm certain we'll see a lot more in the future. Fan-games, however, are simply a part of the internet and will never go away. In fact, a lot of people such as myself really enjoy fan-games because they often provide a great experience not given to you by the original creators. It's something fans of a series crave immensely.
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People play flash games for a quick diversion, not because they think they're inherently better than downloadable PC games. Their cost (in time and money for both developers and customers) is extremely low and their returns are extremely high in relation to the cost. So these flash games get pumped out relatively quickly. Because of this low cost it's more feasible for people to just load up flash games on websites and play them when they get bored. They players then have a bit of fun and return to the site to try out different games. In addition to BYOND being more limiting than flash, the developers' costs and the players' costs are all higher and typically the developers' returns are lower. Therefore the developers(those who are interested in money anyways) who can actually produce a game in flash produce their games in flash! Then the unexperienced ones start looking for game engines, try out a few, and end up here(or at Gamemaker) at the bottom of the development barrel.
tl;dr Flash games have a market and so they get made, BYOND games have no market It's a vicious circle and it cannot be broken. | |
The Magic Man wrote:
No amount of creativity or cool ideas and concepts will draw new people to BYOND until it gets rid of this reputation it has, if that is even possible. This just isn't true. Case in point: most of the major gaming sites that featured NEStalgia mentioned that it as made with BYOND, and the NEStalgia site itself features BYOND prominently (and even mentions that it's a big positive). This all led to tens of thousands of new BYOND keys being created in the course of a few weeks. Anyone who claims that BYOND games can't be viewed as legitimate because of BYOND's supposed "reputation" is just using that as an excuse for their own ineptitude. Most people haven't even heard about BYOND. | |
Its pointless to argue. Whats done is done. BYOND has high standards to set, and a large hole to dig itself out of.
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The Magic Man wrote:
Unfortunately, BYOND has a bad reputation. Actually, not bad, but the worst reputation. Most people wont look at BYOND games seriously just because it was made with BYOND. As Silk said, this isn't true. Most people don't know what BYOND is. Think about how many gamers are on the internet and how many BYOND keys there are. If you're going to advertise a game made with BYOND, don't mention those 5 little letters. I tried it with Block Miners ... As soon as I mentioned BYOND, they said "No thanks. Go make it in something like Flash then we'll play". If most of the people who saw your post knew what BYOND was, the community you posted it in must not be far removed from the BYOND community.Not to put your game down, but I don't think its even featured on BYOND. It sounds like the game just isn't that good and you're blaming the lack of success on BYOND's supposed "bad reputation". This is the exact behavior we need to avoid if we want things to be better. Use the BYOND community for help, make sure your game is good and ready, then promote it. Edit: It seems like that's the case - 120 downloads and no single player mode. How many people actually got to experience the game and how many people downloaded it, couldn't get a game running, and gave up? BrickSquadron wrote: Flash games have a market and so they get made, BYOND games have no market BYOND won't have the same exposure as flash games because some people won't play games you have to download. My point was that there are no technical restrictions that prevent BYOND from being taken seriously. If people can devise fun games that are played on napkins, people can make fun BYOND games. BYOND's technical limitations (2d graphics, laggy, etc.) are often used as an excuse. Flash game developers didn't use technical limitations as an excuse, and BYOND game developers shouldn't either. Fugsnarf wrote: Original games are spectacular and I'm certain we'll see a lot more in the future. Fan-games, however, are simply a part of the internet and will never go away. I think you missed the point. Being original isn't enough - there are plenty of terrible original games. BYOND needs games that are fresh. A fan game could be fresh (Super Mario Bros Crossover is), it's just much less common. Fan games are only indirectly the problem and originality is only part of the solution. For example, NEStalgia is a fresh take on 80s console RPGs, Regressia is not. Both are original and well made, but Regressia doesn't have an original premise so it wouldn't generate the same buzz. For BYOND to be taken seriously we need to show that the BYOND community is capable of generating good, fresh ideas. | |
This is why i'm converting my game to non anime. The only thing i'd have to to is remove all elements from the actual anime, change them a bit, and call them something else. Not too hard to turn a "Kaguya" into a "Bone Manipulator". I made up the majority of the elemental techniques myself and I am writing my own campaign using characters not related to the anime.
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Some people choose to make Anime games due to lack of original ideas. Its easier to recreate it rather than to get a whole new idea in general. However I do agree with you. The developers just need to open DM and just start reprogramming everything, and if they're smart they would have used placeholders as I did.
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Yash 69 wrote:
The developers just need to open DM and just start reprogramming everything You shouldn't have to reprogram anything. FUNimation can prevent you from calling an item, location, character, or ability a certain thing, but they can't prevent you from making something with a different name that serves the same function. As Axerob said: This is why i'm converting my game to non anime. The only thing i'd have to to is remove all elements from the actual anime, change them a bit, and call them something else. Not too hard to turn a "Kaguya" into a "Bone Manipulator". I made up the majority of the elemental techniques myself and I am writing my own campaign using characters not related to the anime. This should be an incredibly easy process. In the end, you might have fewer players than if you had made it a DBZ/Bleach game (or whatever kind of game it was), but the players you have will be playing the game because they like what you made, not because they like the TV show it's based on. | |
BYOND is the only game I play mostly because of fangames since the owners of the shows never make a online version
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Forum_account wrote:
Yash 69 wrote: Player count doesn't bother me, I just do this to improve my programming practices(Computer Science major) and for fun. I know it might not make sense, but when programming in C++ or Java, i always map it out in DM and then just translate it to C++/Java. I know it doesn't work for some things, but it does help a lot of the time. | |
I'd like to raise three points, some perhaps in partial disagreement with you:
1) Innovation is not dependent on the setting. You can have a game set in "Dragonball Z", and still be innovative. Gameplay is what matters. 2) Innovation is not the same as originality: we should strive for the former, not the latter. Something doesn't need to completely "originate" from the developers to be fresh and exciting. Equally, something that originates from the developers is not necessarily interesting. 3) And still, game and setting can be intricately tied. Take, for example, SuperSaiyanGokuX's DBTC: the story and gameplay are innovative, but they are very much tied to the Dragonball universe. We both agree that just "cosmetically" changing it would be ridiculous, a la King Solomon and Shalmai the Shoemaker. | |
I agree totally with everything you said there, Toadfish.
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Toadfish wrote:
I'd like to raise three points, some perhaps in partial disagreement with you: Right, that's why I was talking about needing an original premise. You're calling it "innovation" but I think we're talking about the same thing. A fan game can have an original premise and be a fresh gaming experience, but its less likely. Fan game developers are doing something that is intentionally not innovative, at least in part. While its possible the developer could make innovative gameplay, its not as likely. Few people say "i want to make an innovative action/survival game" and end up with a Resident Evil fan game. 3) And still, game and setting can be intricately tied. Take, for example, SuperSaiyanGokuX's DBTC: the story and gameplay are innovative, but they are very much tied to the Dragonball universe. We both agree that just "cosmetically" changing it would be ridiculous, a la King Solomon and Shalmai the Shoemaker. The names are basically the only part of the dragonball universe people can't use. You can write a story that bears a resemblance to the story of DBZ without infringing at all as long as you give characters and places different names. | |
SilkWizard wrote:
This just isn't true. Case in point: most of the major gaming sites that featured NEStalgia mentioned that it as made with BYOND, and the NEStalgia site itself features BYOND prominently (and even mentions that it's a big positive). This all led to tens of thousands of new BYOND keys being created in the course of a few weeks. I seem to remember that video on Youtube saying something to the extend of "I've heard a lot of bad things about BYOND". I'm pretty sure if I went around and looked at some of these sites, I'd find comments saying similar stuff. http://www.gameogre.com/mmoblog/nestalgia-review A review stating BYOND is an annoyance. http://www.indiegames.com/blog/2011/02/ online_multiplayer_rpg_nestalg.html Tons of comments saying BYOND is bad. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ search?q=cache:POifScbxMkYJ:forums.somethingawful.com/ showthread.php%3Fthreadid%3D3395243+Nestalgia+byond&cd=27&hl =en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=opera&source=www.google.co.uk People saying they wont play because BYOND. Basically, what you've done is taken wine to people who know nothing about wine tasting, and then tried to claim the wine was good, because a bunch of ignorant people said so. Maybe you should go take the wine to actual wine tasters for more valid comments. BYOND has a bad reputation. Claiming it doesn't because people who didn't even know BYOND existed played a game isn't proof that it doesn't have a bad reputation, especially when among those same people there is plenty who do know what BYOND is, and have been effected by it's bad reputation. If most of the people who saw your post knew what BYOND was, the community you posted it in must not be far removed from the BYOND community.I only post on a few places on the web. Most apparently do know about BYOND, and do not like it. Not to put your game down, but I don't think its even featured on BYOND. It sounds like the game just isn't that good and you're blaming the lack of success on BYOND's supposed "bad reputation".It's not featured because I've never tried to get it featured. Infact, I'm pretty sure the person incharge of listing and featuring games has never actually played a game I've made. Most of the tags and listings are wrong for example, some infact are so wrong it just makes me wonder what happened when the person was adding those tags (I have a turned based strategy game listed as an action game for some reason). But the point remains. Most people never even played the game, they flat out refused once the found out BYOND was involved. They had no actual opinion on the game, other than BYOND = BAD and avoid. This is the exact behavior we need to avoid if we want things to be better. Use the BYOND community for help, make sure your game is good and ready, then promote it.Trying to get players on BYOND to play BYOND games is hard enough, trying to get them to give valid criticism is more or less impossible. The people who could give decent criticism barely play games, the ones who do play games can barely form full sentences and any criticism they may give is generally useless and at times nonsensical. http://www.byond.com/games/TheMagicMan/WoHRemake#tab=index Read the first comment. He literally say "the graphics are good but look bad!". Then he tried to accuse me of bad spelling, while being barely able to use English himself. (Which by the way was a flat out lie) It's kind of hard to actually improve a game when these are the only sorts of people you have that are giving you any feedback. Edit: It seems like that's the case - 120 downloads and no single player mode. How many people actually got to experience the game and how many people downloaded it, couldn't get a game running, and gave up? It's a PVP game. Player vs Player. It's not advertised as single player and specifically states it is multiplayer only. A PVP game doesn't need single player (though it would be a quick fix to add). Fact of the matter is, of the little reputation BYOND has, it is mostly bad. The people who know about BYOND are put off by it. It also has a tiny reputation, so sure, plenty of people don't know anything about it, but those are two separate things. | |
Forum_account wrote:
Right, that's why I was talking about needing an original premise. You're calling it "innovation" but I think we're talking about the same thing. A fan game can have an original premise and be a fresh gaming experience, but its less likely. Fan game developers are doing something that is intentionally not innovative, at least in part. While its possible the developer could make innovative gameplay, its not as likely. Few people say "i want to make an innovative action/survival game" and end up with a Resident Evil fan game. Aye, I agree. The names are basically the only part of the dragonball universe people can't use. You can write a story that bears a resemblance to the story of DBZ without infringing at all as long as you give characters and places different names. I doubt that. If the setting is truly integral to the game, I don't think you can easily rewrite the story to 'make sense'. There are a lot of well-known things about Dragonball which would make sense in a game of that setting, but would require explanation or look outright ridiculous in a similar, even remarkably similar setting. | |
I have to agree with The Magic Man here. Virtually every place that advertised NEStalgia was filled with comments such as "nice game! too bad it's made with byond" or "eww byond, forget that noise".
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No seriously, go and try it. If you're going to advertise a game made with BYOND, don't mention those 5 little letters. I tried it with Block Miners.
I didn't mention BYOND, and posted a few screenshots and one or two lines explaining what it was. Plenty of people were interested in playing, they liked the concept, said it looked pretty cool and everything. As soon as I mentioned BYOND, they said "No thanks. Go make it in something like Flash then we'll play".
The number of people who actually played was around 2. Of the hundreds, possibly thousands of people that saw it, and the 40-50 people that said they'd like to play, only 2 played it after BYOND was mentioned. They said it was fun, and a cool idea, but it would still be better in Flash.
Unfortunately, BYOND has a bad reputation. Actually, not bad, but the worst reputation. Most people wont look at BYOND games seriously just because it was made with BYOND.
No amount of creativity or cool ideas and concepts will draw new people to BYOND until it gets rid of this reputation it has, if that is even possible.