Non-members submitting for game listings in BYOND Discussion

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Jan 1 2011, 3:22 pm (Edited on Jan 1 2011, 7:56 pm)
So apparently the new site will only list games made by members. I think that non-member submissions should at least be reviewed. There aren't many games being put out by members as it is, and non-members wouldn't add an incredible amount either, I suspect. It wouldn't be long before the listings would become pretty stagnant to the point that I wouldn't mind even seeing a crappy game show up in the latest games. To add to that, it's nice for new developers that might not be members to still get their games in the listings so that they can be noticed and get some feedback.

I'm all for members perks and helping you guys at BYOND out a bit, but I really think it's going too far to not allow non-members' games to be listed. A few people have come to me with a primary issue concerning the new site being that you guys are pushing non-members under the rug by not letting their games be listed. I have to agree with that, actually.

I've provided a list of reasons, going a little more in-depth, as to why I have issue with this in the reply I made below.
#1 Jan 1 2011, 3:34 pm
I believe the reasoning behind this is 90% of the good games currently on the site have been made by BYOND Members.
#2 Jan 1 2011, 3:39 pm
They'll be listed, just not featured. Same way the blogs have worked for years and no one has complained.

Anyone who makes a game that is worth a damn will have invested enough time in BYOND that they'll likely already be a member. If not, $18 is a very, very small price to pay to advertise your game to the BYOND masses. That said, it's certainly not mandatory -- BYONDers don't seem to acknowledge that there is a whole world outside BYOND just waiting to be pointed to their games. You can link anyone to your hub without it being featured on BYOND.

This benefits everyone. Tom benefits because it gives people a bit more incentive to become a member. Game developers like me benefit because it means that Tom's attention won't be wasted on a million crappy submissions from non-members. The community at large benefits because it will put the spotlight on worthwhile games that the developers actually have a stake in.

Finally, I seriously doubt that you can point me to a single existing game created by someone who isn't a BYOND Member that isn't complete crap. You're complaining about a problem that doesn't/won't even exist.
#3 Jan 1 2011, 3:53 pm
In response to SilkWizard (#2)
SilkWizard wrote:
They'll be listed, just not featured. Same way the blogs have worked for years and no one has complained.

If that was it, I'd be totally fine with it. Is the submission concept just to get your game featured, or listed in the searches and whatnot? I haven't been able to find anything really clear on that. SuperAntx seems to say that currently listed games will stay, but any game that wants to be listed from here on out will need to go through submission, which is for members only. If what SuperAntx says is true, whether or not 90% of good games are made by members, I have an issue.

Your point about using outside sources is also very valid. Most of BYOND's players and beginner developers aren't that well in-tune with the internet though. I know I wasn't when I first started out here. I relied pretty much solely on the BYOND site for anything BYOND related, which really isn't that unreasonable.
#4 Jan 1 2011, 5:28 pm
In response to SilkWizard (#2)
Does it count if they WERE a member but just didn't renew their membership?

EDIT: look into Space Station 13. Nobody who works on it currently is a member.
#5 Jan 1 2011, 5:33 pm
In response to Duelmaster409 (#4)
I'm pretty sure I read on one of the threads Membership is only needed to submit your game to the listing. Once it checks out it shouldn't be removed even if your Membership runs out.
#6 Jan 1 2011, 5:47 pm
In response to SuperAntx (#5)
SuperAntx wrote:
I'm pretty sure I read on one of the threads Membership is only needed to submit your game to the listing. Once it checks out it shouldn't be removed even if your Membership runs out.

Are you sure that it's official, though? I know it was talked about, but I've heard nothing except your word that it's the way it's going to be.
#7 Jan 1 2011, 5:49 pm
In response to Fugsnarf (#6)
#8 Jan 1 2011, 5:51 pm
In response to Sinfall (#7)
Sinfall wrote:
http://www.byond.com/developer/forum/?id=768936&view=1

Fair enough. I have a problem with this. I think I've amply stated why.
#9 Jan 1 2011, 7:55 pm
To take this a step further, I'll make a list of all the reasons why I have an issue with non-members not being able to submit games to be listed on the new site.

1. The listings would become stagnant. Members don't submit stuff at any calculative rate as it is. Non-members wouldn't submit much else, but it would at least keep content flowing in.

2. There are featured games for a reason. To say that members produce all the best games, so non-member games shouldn't be listed is preposterous.

3. There may be other places to advertise, but it isn't a whole lot to ask to just be listed on the BYOND site even if you aren't a member. Some people, such as me when I first came here, don't have access to funds to become a member. I still tried to make games, and I benefited exponentially from my Megaman game being listed and noticed by people.

4. The one things weighing down the site right now are the massive amounts of rips. Hiding them will help the site out enough. There's no need to take it that extra step and hide non-member games, it's unnecessary. No matter how you justify it, it's really unnecessary.

5. You're losing current BYOND users and potential future BYOND members because they believe you are pushing non-members under the rug, which is essentially what you're doing. I've encountered numerous people already that have expressed huge issue with this.

6. You're treating non-members exactly how you treat rips. Enough said.

For these reasons, I believe that non-member games should be listed along with member games. I propose instead that non-member games can't be featured. It's not nearly as drastic, but it's still some incentive to buy a membership when it comes to listings.
#10 Jan 1 2011, 8:22 pm
In response to Fugsnarf (#9)
The issue and the bottom line is this is to prevent rips from being submitted constantly.

I think a better compromise would be for members to submit any game. And than if individuals decide to submit games that are clearly rips over and over they can just lose the privilege.

This more so deals with the issue of non-members cluttering up the system with rips and being banned from trying to submit listing and just making another key etc. I think it's a rather fair system since it will help keep the quality up as well.

The other thing I would like to point out is that as the community grows in a hopefully new direction new games should start popping up at least weekly if not monthly, which is plenty of growth for a games list. It takes time to produce quality games, and it makes the overall appearance of BYOND seem more legitimate, not an engine that just produces fangames.

And not to mention they can still advertise in creations, or other places on the forums.
#11 Jan 1 2011, 8:41 pm
In response to Fugsnarf (#9)
Fugsnarf wrote:
1. The listings would become stagnant. Members don't submit stuff at any calculative rate as it is. Non-members wouldn't submit much else, but it would at least keep content flowing in.

Sometimes having a slower flow of new releases is a good thing. It's much better than a constant stream of generic garbage which ends up making the good stuff hard to find. Quality > Quantity is the case here.

2. There are featured games for a reason. To say that members produce all the best games, so non-member games shouldn't be listed is preposterous.

Non-member games will be listed, they just wont be featured. The only difference between featured and non featured is the order in which the're listed.

3. There may be other places to advertise, but it isn't a whole lot to ask to just be listed on the BYOND site even if you aren't a member. Some people, such as me when I first came here, don't have access to funds to become a member. I still tried to make games, and I benefited exponentially from my Megaman game being listed and noticed by people.

Non-member games will be listed, they just wont be featured.

4. The one things weighing down the site right now are the massive amounts of rips. Hiding them will help the site out enough. There's no need to take it that extra step and hide non-member games, it's unnecessary. No matter how you justify it, it's really unnecessary.

Non-member games will be listed, they just wont be featured.

5. You're losing current BYOND users and potential future BYOND members because they believe you are pushing non-members under the rug, which is essentially what you're doing. I've encountered numerous people already that have expressed huge issue with this.

The type of people who will be leaving BYOND because of this change are exactly the sort of people who should be leaving, seeing as how they're the cancerous mass dragging things down. With them gone and serious developers coming in BYOND will become a much better place.

6. You're treating non-members exactly how you treat rips. Enough said.

Non-member games will be listed, they just wont be featured.

I propose instead that non-member games can't be featured.

This is what's intended. I'm sorry I didn't clarify that in my original reply.
#12 Jan 1 2011, 8:56 pm
In response to SuperAntx (#11)
"To cull out the "rip" problem plaguing BYOND, only Members are allowed to submit their hub entries for search & listing, and those in turn must be approved." - http://www.byond.com/members/?command=member_news#site (scroll down a bit)
#13 Jan 1 2011, 11:29 pm
In response to SuperAntx (#1)
SuperAntx wrote:
I believe the reasoning behind this is 90% of the good games currently on the site have been made by BYOND Members.

Good people often donate membership to non-members when they think they're worth it. Therefore 30% of those games are made by non-members, who later became members because their work was noticed. Now it won't be noticed.
#14 Jan 2 2011, 8:37 am
In response to Ripiz (#13)
BYOND gives you the software and platform for your creation, and hosts a free website(hub) for it that shows the list of players logged in, and any other information you wish to have displayed. So you're telling me, that after BYOND gives you the means to have your creation made, and gives you a website to show off your game to other people, you are still too unappreciative to give them $18 to have your game in some fancy list? When Final Fantasy 1 was created, do you think they had a fancy list to put it on full of players clicking to check things out? No, they had to advertise and put themselves out on the market. The kids on BYOND have to stop relying on what BYOND has bent over backwards doing for them for the last 10 years, and start owning up for themselves. If you spent the time to actually develop your own game, you would have no problem dishing out $18 for advertisement, or marketing the game yourself. You want it in a fancy list? There are tons on the internet for you to post your game on, go out and find one yourself if you're too cheap for this one.
#15 Jan 2 2011, 9:09 am
In response to Duelmaster409 (#4)
Duelmaster409 wrote:
EDIT: look into Space Station 13. Nobody who works on it currently is a member.

Since when was that a good game that deserved "featured" status? There's lots of drama in that community and no central authority.

I'd like to add that Conco is a BYOND Member and he has his own branch. But there we have the problem: he's not an official developer. Nobody is. Out of the 5 servers currently online 3 are hosted by what would seem to be the official developers.

And these "official" developers don't even think much of BYOND. I have often heard complaints about the software and they're not kind to outsiders either. The community attracts the worst kind of people who will just spit you out the first chance they get.

Non-members may have the ability to make great games, but that doesn't outweigh the need for money to be made in order to keep BYOND alive. Any other company may of have charged for the software or added "subscriber-only" features to it by now (see Game Maker for a prime example, and they don't even have many multi-player games for that matter).
#16 Jan 2 2011, 9:55 am
In response to Mikau (#14)
Mikau wrote:
So you're telling me, that after BYOND gives you the means to have your creation made, and gives you a website to show off your game to other people, you are still too unappreciative to give them $18 to have your game in some fancy list?

I would have given the money to become a member when I started out, but I had no way to. For one, I was embarrassed to let my parents know I was doing this, so they wouldn't give money to it obviously. Even if I told them, I doubt they would. I was young too, so I had no income. My game being noticed then was a big point of growth for me. I had a game to develop for and learn from, and many news friends and staff members which helped me grow as a person and as a leader too.
#17 Jan 2 2011, 10:07 am
In response to Android Data (#15)
Android Data wrote:
Duelmaster409 wrote:
EDIT: look into Space Station 13. Nobody who works on it currently is a member.

Since when was that a good game that deserved "featured" status? There's lots of drama in that community and no central authority.

This isn't about being featured. My argument is that there's already games with featured status, so there's no need to get rid of the non-members games just because they might not be featured material. With that logic, you might as well get rid of everything except featured games from the list.

Non-members may have the ability to make great games, but that doesn't outweigh the need for money to be made in order to keep BYOND alive. Any other company may of have charged for the software or added "subscriber-only" features to it by now (see Game Maker for a prime example, and they don't even have many multi-player games for that matter).

That's why I propose at least making sure non-member games can't be featured and making it very clear to the non-members. It's some incentive at least without taking such a drastic measure and, as I mentioned in my list, treating non-members the same as rips.
#18 Jan 2 2011, 10:14 am
In response to Fugsnarf (#16)
Fugsnarf wrote:
I would have given the money to become a member when I started out, but I had no way to. For one, I was embarrassed to let my parents know I was doing this, so they wouldn't give money to it obviously. Even if I told them, I doubt they would. I was young too, so I had no income. My game being noticed then was a big point of growth for me. I had a game to develop for and learn from, and many news friends and staff members which helped me grow as a person and as a leader too.

This is the real world, just because something benefits you, doesn't mean it should be free because it's for the greater good. This is why advertising on park benches isn't free. Sure my face on every street corner will make me really popular, and probably make people choose me over the other guy for whatever I may be doing, but it doesn't warrant the need for me to be handed things out just because it helps me build character. You want the popularity and players, dish out $18 to be in the fancy list, or go put yourself in a fancy list somewhere else yourself. Which even if you were in this list, you should be putting yourself in the other list anyways. It's how you attract outside attention to your game and bring new people to BYOND, and that is how you really support BYOND.
#19 Jan 2 2011, 11:36 am
In response to Mikau (#18)
Everything you said is true, however, the majority of BYONDers are 16 and younger. For me, BYOND was hidden from my real world. I didn't let anyone know about it, so naturally I didn't ask anyone to buy me a membership (even today it's well hidden that I still hang here and program). Most people of that age have no income too. At my age now (and being a little more tech and internet savy) I know how to advertise and all the different sites there are. I also can buy my own membership. Before, however, I had no way to get one. I hated not having a membership even then and was very excited for the perks we have even now when I got it. The vast majority of BYONDers and new BYONDers are not as perfect as you'd love them to be, I think we know that. However, shoving them under the rug just because rips are primarily made by non-members is a terrible way to go about fixing the issue. Hide the rips themselves, not BYONDs majority of users which probably have no way of giving to the project. I'm sure they would if they could.
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