The real reason for the war in Off Topic

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#40 Mar 28 2003, 9:32 pm
In response to Gughunter (#39)
If the American PEOPLE were against the war on Iraq, the people of the world would definitely back them.

Hell, here in west Canada, when we heard about protests to the war in the U.S., we fully supported them. We felt that they were the people that were going to have the toughest time and they needed the most backing because they are in direct conflict with their government and, even, some of their own people.

One thing I think Americans need to understand from the international community, and this is important. I don't think I'm only speaking for myself when I say I have absolutely nothing against the American people. It's the American GOVERNMENT that is the major problem. Not the people. It is the government that heads efforts to withold information. It is the government that heads efforts to direct behaviour. I don't live in the U.S., but I can sure as hell see it from here, and so can a lot of other people outside of the country.

-Dagolar
#41 Mar 28 2003, 10:07 pm
In response to Dagolar (#40)
As I respect your opinion, I must say it is rather annoying to hear from people who don't even know what it's like to live in America to say this, and I know your probably going to say/think some paranoid/insulting thought, but it does not really matter to me. My opinion on the thought about the government trying to screw over and lie to it's own people is another conspiracy theory, and it's bland and pointless. I find it impossible to, "Merely see it from your position.", but it is more of an assumption, and that assumption by other people of the world and the rumor spreading is going to be downfall of America.


<<>>Kusanagi<<>>
#42 Mar 28 2003, 10:14 pm
In response to Kusanagi (#41)
Kusanagi, do you ever NOT downplay someone else's argument? You KNOW I'm going to say something insulting? Then you know very little...

Do you ever go out of the U.S. to listen to opinion? Do you ever listen to people besides Americans talk about this stuff?

-Dagolar
#43 Mar 29 2003, 1:46 am (Edited on Mar 29 2003, 1:52 am)
In response to Kusanagi (#41)
Kusanagi wrote:
As I respect your opinion, I must say it is rather annoying
to hear from people who don't even know what it's like to
live in America to say this...

Well, you can now hear it from someone who was born in Texas, and has lived 32 years in America, and lived 3 years in Europe: Dagolar has a very good point. Even when I lived in the country I saw the differences between what the people wanted, and what the government actual did 'in the name of the American people' - often the results were very different. Living in Europe has shown me that my interpretation of the American government is shared by many from inside *and* outside the country...

I've also been in the US AirForce, and worked in several low level government offices - trust me: the US government is certainly no angel, and tends to do what the 'inner circle of boys club' thinks is important, not what the people in general think is important... They make some of the lesser-liked governments look far less oppressing...
#44 Mar 29 2003, 7:42 am
In response to digitalmouse (#43)
digitalmouse wrote:
They make some of the lesser-liked governments look far less oppressing...

I respect that your opinion is based on experience here and abroad, but what you are saying in this case is way out there.

The US makes places where domestic murder is a normal political tool seem less oppressive? Places where women can't get health care, or aren't allowed to be educated, or are stoned for wearing the wrong clothes on the street are less oppressive? Places where gays are routinely killed? Where religious differences can spark deadly feuds? Where political coups and judicial corruption are the norm?

I don't buy it. Not for a minute.

As some have pointed out, if this is the case, how come everyone wants to *come* to America? Seriously...in the most anti-American places, you will frequently find someone ranting against the evil America one moment, then fervently hoping they can send their kid here to get educated the next. This is extremely common. On the other hand, people are typically doing everything they can to claw their way out of those "less oppressive" countries.

Casually tossing off the concept that, somehow, the US really isn't any different from murderous dictatorships is a lot of what's wrong with much of the world today.

There is a difference. A vast, vast difference.
#45 Mar 29 2003, 8:22 am
In response to Deadron (#44)
Finally! Someone who understands. I completely agree with Deadron, even though I'm not a big Bush fan, but, I still think he's doing the right thing. I was born and raised in the old U.S of A. But, for those of you who "THINK" you know what you're talking about that the U.S is doing wrong. Just remember what happened more then 60 years ago, when Japan attacked our military installation's even though they were making peace relations. We're basically in the same boat now, except this time, we're not just gonna sit back and get hit blindly.
#46 Mar 29 2003, 9:11 am
In response to Dagolar (#42)
I have been listening for the past 2 weeks, and all I hear are pitiful exscuses on why people hate the U.S., and I think that gives me enough of a right to go against those arguements. Unfortunately, all this tells me is that people in other countries think that the U.S. is some type of corrupted underground political system, and uses all it's power to infuse evil into the world, when in fact we are doing the only thing nobody else will do, liberate thousands of people from an evil dictator's clutches. Hey, you know what? I fully agree, our government is very evil and should be punished for liberating thousands of people and wiping out an evil dictator's rule at the cost of our soldier's lives and a large sum of money. Gee Dagolar, you have really opened my eyes.


<<>>Kusanagi<<>>
#47 Mar 29 2003, 10:00 am
In response to Kusanagi (#46)
All you hear are pitiful excuses on why people hate the U.S..

Yeah, okay Kusanagi. If that is going to be the extent of your search for international opinion, that's pretty lame. But hey, if you're satisfied with that, so am I. I wouldn't expect any different.

-Dagolar
#48 Mar 29 2003, 10:04 am
In response to Deadron (#44)
Everyone wants to *come* to America. Oh please...See, that's the kind of arrogance that just rots my brain. EVERYONE wants to come to America...If you believe that, then I guess expectations have been fulfilled and exceeded.

-Dagolar
#49 Mar 29 2003, 10:07 am
In response to digitalmouse (#43)
How did you come to identify stuff like that by living in Europe, might I ask? Or did you come to those conclusions while living in the U.S.?


-Dagolar
#50 Mar 29 2003, 10:08 am
In response to Goku72 (#45)
Right. So get the pre-emptive strike while you can!


-Dagolar
#51 Mar 29 2003, 10:10 am
In response to Dagolar (#48)
Dagolar wrote:
Everyone wants to *come* to America. Oh please...See, that's the kind of arrogance that just rots my brain. EVERYONE wants to come to America...If you believe that, then I guess expectations have been fulfilled and exceeded.

-Dagolar

I've done a pretty good amount of reading and study about the Middle East, and just about every commentator (VS Naipaul, Thomas Friedman, etc) has commented repeatedly on this phenomenon. The desire to have your kids educated in the US is pretty widespread, no matter what the political opinions of the US.
#52 Mar 29 2003, 11:00 am
In response to Deadron (#51)
It's all based solely on the Middle East? It's all about educating in the U.S.? That is the most limited stance on that I've ever heard.

-Dagolar
#53 Mar 29 2003, 11:12 am
In response to Dagolar (#52)
Good God, I think I've found someone who more sorely abuses the concept of debate than Dareb. You have yet to put forth a solid point that isn't a broad, sweeping generality... when someone says something, you do nothing but repeat it back or say, "No, I'm sorry, you can't say that."

You're like a sad attempt at a one-person propaganda machine... you have no facts, only rhetoric... you seek to defeat arguments not by disproving them but by declaring them out of bounds... for instance, while you reserve the right to make broad sweeping statements like speculating about what "the whole world" will do, when deadron uses a phrase like "everyone" to mean "a lot of people", you seize upon it like he had literally meant "each and every person upon the face of the world." When someone said that the rest of the world's media seemed about the same, you said, "What about the Arab media?", yet when deadron mentions a study of Middle Eastern nations, you imply that's too small a segment to matter... nevermind that it's not the sample size that's important, the telling thing about that study is that it was based on the region with the most hostility to the U.S. If the region that hates us the most openly wants to send its children here to be educated, that says a lot more than if countries we have strong ties to, like Canada or the UK, did so.
#54 Mar 29 2003, 11:24 am
In response to Hedgemistress (#53)
Hedgemistress wrote:
yet when deadron mentions a study of Middle Eastern nations, you imply that's too small a segment to matter... nevermind that it's not the sample size that's important

I should clarify that I didn't mean to imply I'd read a study of this, but rather that in my own studies of the Middle East, I'd repeatedly seen this phenomenon described by people I find to be reliable commentators, both US and European.

Along those lines, anyone who wants the most eye-opening, clear, educational, comprehensive discussion of the current Middle East situation that I've read, I recommend first that you read Thomas Friedman's Wed/Sun articles in the NY Times whenever you can, and secondly that you read his book:

Longitudes and Attitudes: Exploring the World After September 11

He's also well-known for his other two books, which I haven't read yet but you can find on Google, and his documentary is currently on the Discover channel.

Friedman is not a gung-ho Bush guy. He regularly critizes Bush, and US policy, and Israel (even though he's Jewish). But he does so in the context of understanding what is good and bad about the US, and what is good and bad about the Middle East and much of Europe.

Another excellent book, written long before 9/11 and extremely educational about the state of women in the Arab world, is:

Nine Parts of Desire: The Hidden World of Islamic Women

#55 Mar 29 2003, 11:30 am
In response to Hedgemistress (#53)
No facts, only rhetoric. Hey, if you see it like that, good for you. Makes no difference to me. You can view arguments in whatever form you want. If you choose that position, fine. If you want to go and look at some of the responses I've given to Kusanagi outside of this one, you do that. If you don't want to, then don't. Regarding the arab media, those two stances were under totally different contexts.

Anyway, I'm tired of arguing. I am just going to read from now on. Everyone has their own opinions. That is as it should be.

-Dagolar
#56 Mar 29 2003, 11:32 am (Edited on Mar 29 2003, 11:38 am)
In response to Dagolar (#55)
Yes, as "entirely different" as Hitler and Saddam. Spuzzum, RaeKwon, someone... help me out here. Do they not teach comparisons in Canadian schools? How about reasoning by analogy?

I've read every post in all the related threads. If you want to delude yourself that you're the champion of objectivity, then go right ahead... delusions are like opinions in that everyone's entitled to them.

[EDIT]

And in case anyone doubts how far I am from receiving conflicting opinions... Kimberly, my significant similar, routinely subjects me to thirty second "commercials" for movies with titles like Presiden Evil and Iraqnophobia.
#57 Apr 1 2003, 5:40 am
In response to Gazoot (#5)
Yeah, it's amazing the kinds of wierd trash you can find if you look hard enough. Personally, I'd be more inclined to believe some of the stuff on theonion.com.
#58 Apr 1 2003, 5:50 am
In response to Cyrlous (#57)
some people just cant let a bad thread die.
#59 Apr 1 2003, 6:34 am
In response to Maz (#58)
It would have been closer to dying had you not posted that. Anyway, I don't often post to the forums, but that article kinda irritated me.
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