Personally I think the uncencored Unpublished channel should just be removed.

I don't see why. The Hub entries for any game that is offensive should be removed, but the blurb does say "explore at your own risk". That's not just intended to be cute, you know.

Good analogy: if you find one bad egg in the carton, do you throw out the whole dozen?

That's a really good idea, except that people might just make a game to get it into that channel, and then replace it with an inappropriate game. At least the names of the games on the hub page will have been checked, though.

Should explicit adult games be allowed to run in unpublished? By explicit I mean games that show visually full nudity and hardcore (we're talking about porn rating level) acts?

Legally in the US it's a difficult issue to decide (especially since the company of Dantom is located in Orange county California, federal acts like CDA and COPA both failed (which is a good thing) to find hosts responsible for content available on (sometimes meaning even linking to) web sites, news servers, etc.)).

Morally, this should be an easy answer of no. This post should explain why easy enough. It only takes one parent with enough money to take up a personal vendetta against that byond.com site which give his little Johnny PORN!

I don't see removal of the whole unpublished games channel an answer. Why not try a TOS agreement written exactly for this issue. Users see it and have to agree the next time they log into their key on the web site. Something along the lines of not hosting or playing such games with penalty of account termination. If that doesn't work well enough make some examples and ban a few offenders.

BYOND.com provides just as much access to inappropriate material as google.com or any other search engine does. BYOND.com isn't hosting the material any more than google.com is, it just provides a way to get links to it, so I doubt anyone would attack BYOND over it.

Jon88 wrote:

people might just make a game to get it into that channel, and then replace it with an inappropriate game.

What's the point?

May I chip in my two cents? From all the time I've been around BYOND, I'd say that about 60-80% of the people are under 18 (not a suprise, since these are video games, by the way).

Actually, now that the 80s generation is reaching maturity, the numbers show that most gamers are males between the ages of 15 and 28.

Games are quickly developing into media that is typically unsuitable for minors (much like television has changed to be typically unsuitable for minors -- 50 years ago, if a TV show merely showed a naked behind, it would've been boycotted from every network imaginable). There is, of course, always a diverse market that caters to other demographics, but the facts remain that adults are the people who are playing the most games.

Again, this reminds me of the time my brother showed me exactly "why" Raekwon dis-allows profanity in his games, and the reason of young eyes benig around reers it's ugly head. I, myself, am 15.

The reason why I disallow profanity in my games has nothing to do with children -- it's a matter of personal respect. Would you say, "Well, how the &@#%@# are you !@$&(!% doing, sir?" to your boss at work? Of course not. The whole point is, you should treat everyone you interact with with the same respect as you would treat your boss -- especially if you don't know who exactly you're interacting with.

Many people who stand behind a "please think of the children" defense are fighting for a cause they don't even understand, because they can't come up with a valid reason why it is actually bad for the children. I don't butter things up -- it's not about children, it's about common decency.

If everyone involved in the game considers that swearing is fine, then more power to them -- they can swear all they want. However, if they offend even one person, then swearing goes out the door. That's why I don't bother regulating private communication in Haven, for example; what two people say to each other is their own business, and if neither of them gets offended by it, then it's perfectly fine. Public communication, on the other hand, is severely restricted and enforced.

There is a rule around my house that stands to an extreme level. If I were ever caugfht going to a porn site of any kind, or one with porn within it's context, I will most likely, end up being banned from the computer until I am of legal age, which is a long long time.

BYOND never has, doesn't, and never will condone the creation of vulgar games. However, people are free to do so. The creation of Hub entries that are vulgar, contain graphic depictions of nudity, or otherwise, do fall into Dantom's administrative umbrella, and once reported they are usually dealt with.

If the Hub entry itself is tame, however, and it provides adequate warning about the content and purpose of the game, then the only person responsible for seeing that game is the person who willingly seeks it out and accesses it. Just because a game is themed around pornography doesn't make Dantom responsible, any more than CISCO is responsible for running routers that can be used to transmit pornographic data.

If someone is DUI and kills a family of four, does the family's next of kin sue the liquor company? Or the automobile company? Surely they should have told people not to drink and drive -- but they didn't, so they should get sued, right? =)

What draws the line, here, then? Well, I can clearly agree with the whole concept of no porn (How desperate must one be to resort to...BYOND?),

The point comes once again to demographics. The average PC gamer is an adult or young adult male. However, the age brackets of anime fans are wider than that, ranging from adolescence to middle-age; because BYOND is generally a gaming community, we see overlap with the young anime fan group (which is drawn in by DBZ games, mostly) and the PC gamer group (which is, by its nature, fairly young and male).

Thus, the only reason we're seeing a bloated number of vulgar games is because we have some of the worse elements of both groups. =)

and possibly less material which is completely inappropriate (Though I do enjoy playing games like The Mis-Adventures of Light Samurai from time to time, no harm in my eyes).

It should be up to Dantom on how far to set whatever limits there might be in whatever future there is for BYOND.

Dantom has already set limits: no vulgarity is allowed in Hub entries (obviously, this includes names), and adequate warning must be created in your Hub entry if your game contains offensive content. Dantom don't personally oversee every item that gets added to the Hub -- it's necessary for people to report offensive content to them before they can take appropriate action. Reports should all be handled discreetly and privately, though, to prevent it from spilling over and creating pandemonium (like this thread). =)

Personally, since all of this stuff is under Dantom,

Yes, but Dantom is only responsible for the Hub, and this whole discussion is about sanctioning a legitimate service that is being abused by one or two people.

and if by any chance, any laws are violated

Anyone committing any laws is responsible for their own actions, unless those actions are committed in an emotional state where the perpetrator cannot be mentally considered to be the same person that committed the crime.

(It's like handing porn to children like candy),

No, it's not. If I walked out in public and shot someone on the street, would that instantly inspire every child on the street to go start shooting people?

If you see something grotesque, horrifying, or obscene by accident, it doesn't affect you in any way. Heck, even if you see it on purpose, it generally doesn't affect you much.

The real problem is the people that are pre-disposed towards that sort of thing in the first place. For example, angry Republicans with nothing better to do have linked the Columbine shootings to the fact that the kids played Doom -- what these folks have failed to mention, of course, is the fact that Doom has sold millions of copies worldwide, and we aren't seeing millions of high-school shootings worldwide. =P

and some parent does see it, I do see it possible to have a prent or something of that sort, try to take it towards getting BYOND shut down.

Of course. There's always that risk. Heck, there's a risk of getting sued for emotional distress if you make someone wait five minutes for a burger because the friers aren't hot yet. =)

The point is, they wouldn't succeed if they ever did make a case of it.

Alathon wrote:

It's not the job of Dantom to police a free medium they provide

While I agree with you for the most part I do think that they have some sort of obligation to police the medium they provide.
Im very thankful for the free service they offer us, and I hate to ask them to do more, but something should be done before it gets too bad.
Things like this have a habit of getting out of control. Doing something now could mean the differnce between the HUB turning into a Warez/Porn den and keeping it under control.
I know thats a very paranoid statement, but it could happen.


As for finding porn easily, your right, but that shouldnt be a factor. Its about BYOND vs "Adult Content" not The Internet vs "Adult Content".

But, it also discruges new people from making games because it becomes more difficult to make a game and get it known while still in the early stages.

I disallow vulgar language in general, because as you should know, when someone gets killed in a game they tend to swear. I don't respect this, and there is a lot of young children playing my game. Because of this, I disallow it.

But, now, if they were all 15+ years olds, I don't think I would work so hard at enforcing those rules, because it's not like you've never swore before when you get killed, whether it's in your head, or written in text. I understand Spuzzum's comment about the respect matter, and how you wouldn't go up to your boss and be like: How in the ****ing **** are you doing today, dip****? But now if you're at work, and you drop something on your foot for instance, and your boss is standing there, I probably would end up saying something vulgar.


RaeKwon