Feature suggestions for Dream Maker's icon editor in BYOND Discussion

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ID:132983
 
Jul 7 2009, 11:41 am (Edited on Jul 11 2009, 12:12 pm)
Hello,

Me and the iconer of the game I work for would like to request some features for Dream Maker's icon editor tool, which would make iconing - and especially for large and lengthy animations - a whole lot easier.
My suggestion consists of the following features:


- It would be extremely, indescribably convenient if there was an option to REALLY delete a selected frame (as in, the frame disappears from the list and the frame count decreases evenly).
Currently, when you click a frame and hit the delete key on your keyboard, it will only make the selected frame(s) go empty.
And a contrary option, to insert a new frame at a chosen position within the frames list would also be appreciated by many icon artists.

- The ability to select multiple frames within an icon state, so that the option of simultaneously changing delays for all of the selected frames at once would come to exist.

- Additionally, the ability to simultaneously edit all of the frame delays in a group of selected icon states.

- The ability to remove selected colors in "Edit..." under "Colors" option.

- Allow for importable/exportable template laying out states for use in other graphical editing programs. (*)

- Display more than nine frames of a movie state while editing that state. Currently, only nine frames are displayed at the time, regardless of the size of the Dream Maker window.

- Display frame numbers under frames, or some intelligent way of identifying individual frames, without having to count through the frames manually.


(*): Kind of like how 3D modeling programs have a feature that allows you to unwrap the polygons and arrange them in a way that allows easy mapping of textures in other graphics programs. So it would basically make a PNG file with a bunch of boxes containing the contents of each state/tile/frame, etc. Which can then be edited and re-imported to save the hassle of having to bring in each 32x32 chunk manually.


Thank you very much.
#1 Jul 7 2009, 3:36 pm
Nielz wrote:
- The ability to select multiple frames within an icon state, so that the option of simultaneously changing delays for all of the selected frames at once would come to exist.

There is a "select all frames" menu option, but it seems to do absolutely nothing.

- The ability to remove selected colors in "Edit..." under "Colors" option.

What do you mean by this? You can already change the color from there, so "removing" it would mean changing it to an already-existing color.

- Allow for importable/exportable template laying out states for use in other graphical editing programs. (*)

.dmi files are already a valid .png format: you can open them directly with any other program that can open .pngs. However, they extend the format using the comment fields, which are ignored and may not be preserved in some programs. Also, you do only get a single row of icon_states with no real indication of what is what.
#2 Jul 7 2009, 9:20 pm
In response to Garthor (#1)
Garthor wrote:
What do you mean by this? You can already change the color from there, so "removing" it would mean changing it to an already-existing color.

Changing red to green doesn't help much if you wanted the red to be transparent. You can't even modify alpha levels in the color swap, nor can you set it to the transparent BG color.
#3 Jul 8 2009, 12:55 am
In response to Garthor (#1)
Garthor wrote:
Nielz wrote:
- The ability to select multiple frames within an icon state, so that the option of simultaneously changing delays for all of the selected frames at once would come to exist.

There is a "select all frames" menu option, but it seems to do absolutely nothing.

That is true, for some reason it only works if you have already selected a single frame, though.

And although there is some kind of multi-selecting of frames present, it only allows to select a range of frames in a row. it doesn't allow the user to, for example, select only frame numbers 1,3 and 5, it would automatically select the whole range between frame 1 and frame 5, just like windows' shift+leftclick select. It would be handy to have a ctrl+leftclick multi-select also.

And even the present shift + leftclick select only allows to copy/paste/cut the selected frames. If you try to change the delays of the selected frames, it will only apply the delay change to the one frame at the beginning of the selection, even though multiple frames were selected.
#4 Jul 8 2009, 3:47 am
In response to Falacy (#2)
Falacy wrote:
Garthor wrote:
What do you mean by this? You can already change the color from there, so "removing" it would mean changing it to an already-existing color.

Changing red to green doesn't help much if you wanted the red to be transparent. You can't even modify alpha levels in the color swap, nor can you set it to the transparent BG color.

It goes by RGB, not alpha, so by adjusting 255,0,0 to 0,255,0 will affect all reds, regardless of their alpha. If you wanted to be able to change the alpha that would require either destroying all alpha information whenever you used this feature, or showing each different alpha value as its own entry in the "common colors" list, which would get old rather fast if you were trying to do, for example, an anti-aliasing effect.
#5 Jul 8 2009, 8:27 am
In response to Garthor (#4)
Garthor wrote:
It goes by RGB, not alpha, so by adjusting 255,0,0 to 0,255,0 will affect all reds, regardless of their alpha. If you wanted to be able to change the alpha that would require either destroying all alpha information whenever you used this feature, or showing each different alpha value as its own entry in the "common colors" list, which would get old rather fast if you were trying to do, for example, an anti-aliasing effect.

It would only need to modify alpha based on whatever you currently have it set to, and change it to whatever you changed it to. And at absolute least they could add an option, even if completely separate from the standard methods, to change a color to the transparent BG.
#6 Jul 8 2009, 1:11 pm
In response to Garthor (#4)
Garthor wrote:
Falacy wrote:
Garthor wrote:
What do you mean by this? You can already change the color from there, so "removing" it would mean changing it to an already-existing color.

Changing red to green doesn't help much if you wanted the red to be transparent. You can't even modify alpha levels in the color swap, nor can you set it to the transparent BG color.

It goes by RGB, not alpha, so by adjusting 255,0,0 to 0,255,0 will affect all reds, regardless of their alpha. If you wanted to be able to change the alpha that would require either destroying all alpha information whenever you used this feature, or showing each different alpha value as its own entry in the "common colors" list, which would get old rather fast if you were trying to do, for example, an anti-aliasing effect.

The original intention of the suggestion was to allow the complete removal of a selected color. As it is, Dream Maker allows large images to be copied from one graphics editing program and pasted into DM. As long as the 'use size from file' box is unchecked, DM will automatically cut the image up into tiles of the specified size and number them from left to right, top to bottom. But there is no transparency. So that still requires going through each tile and manually switching the background color to transparent. It isn't hard to do, but it's a lot of unnecessary tedium.
#7 Jul 8 2009, 7:08 pm
In response to King Flapjack (#6)
King Flapjack wrote:
The original intention of the suggestion was to allow the complete removal of a selected color. As it is, Dream Maker allows large images to be copied from one graphics editing program and pasted into DM. As long as the 'use size from file' box is unchecked, DM will automatically cut the image up into tiles of the specified size and number them from left to right, top to bottom. But there is no transparency. So that still requires going through each tile and manually switching the background color to transparent. It isn't hard to do, but it's a lot of unnecessary tedium.

Just did it. Imported a .png image and all transparencies were preserved, as well as the alpha channel. Perhaps the program you're using to create the files is at fault, here?
#8 Jul 9 2009, 1:21 am
I personally think all of these suggestions are, in fact, good suggestions. Most of these would be immediately useful to me, personally, if they were implemented. I especially like the idea of being able to import/export a png tileset that could be edited in Photoshop and then imported back in. It'd be possible to preserve all of the BYOND modifications (such as the icon states and animation data) if you imported a tileset into a specific icon that already has all of that data. (Only the graphics would be changed, basically. But the graphics of the entire icon could be replaced, which is why this is useful.) Currently, I have only been able to do this by looking at how the dmi looked as a png (via changing the extension to .png) and then programming something in BYOND (using icon procs) to copy the proper parts of the tileset and change it back into an animated dmi. (After editing it in Photoshop, of course.)
On a side note, however, I still think it's possible for someone to create their own dmi editing program, I, however lack the skill. (Maybe BYOND's graphic editing program will reach a good point, eventually. It is growing at some rate.)
Heck, maybe someone can even make an extension for Photoshop that allows it to edit dmi files and preserve the BYOND data.
#9 Jul 9 2009, 6:15 am (Edited on Jul 9 2009, 6:25 am)
In response to Falacy (#5)
It would also be extremely, indescribably convenient if there was an option to REALLY delete a selected frame (as in, the frame disappears from the list and the frame count decreases evenly).
You might say: "Hey, just use the frame count option and decrease the number." Well, that is only convenient when the frames you want gone are at the end of the movie, if not, we'll have to delete a range of wanted frames too, so we'll need to re-draw all of those frames afterward. A real pain.

And a contrary option, to insert a new frame at a chosen position within the frames list would also be appreciated by many icon artists.

(Currently, when you click a frame and hit the delete key on your keyboard, it will only make the selected frame(s) go empty.)
#10 Jul 9 2009, 6:32 am
In response to Nielz (#9)
You can copy multiple frames and then paste them in place over the existing ones (though pasting is currently screwed up in 443), then lower the frame count to remove mid-way frames. Same basic thing can be done to insert frames.
#11 Jul 9 2009, 8:29 am
In response to Falacy (#10)
Falacy wrote:
You can copy multiple frames and then paste them in place over the existing ones (though pasting is currently screwed up in 443), then lower the frame count to remove mid-way frames. Same basic thing can be done to insert frames.

Yes, but that's not very convenient as it's prone to confusion since it may require counting of frames, which is also very inconvenient since you can only see 9 frames no matter what.
#12 Jul 9 2009, 9:27 am
In response to Garthor (#7)
Handy. I haven't imported .png files before, I've only copy-pasted from Photoshop. That method doesn't preserve transparency. Regardless, the feature in question would still have some utility.
#13 Jul 9 2009, 9:30 am
In response to Falacy (#10)
Falacy wrote:
You can copy multiple frames and then paste them in place over the existing ones (though pasting is currently screwed up in 443), then lower the frame count to remove mid-way frames. Same basic thing can be done to insert frames.

A process I'm intimately familiar with. But like Nielz said, still monumentally inconvenient when you have to manually count out frame numbers, and even more inconvenient when you're moving large sets of frames. If frames were treated like states and could be moved/added/deleted/placed independently, that would be a massive advantage.
#14 Jul 10 2009, 2:56 am
In response to Nielz (#11)
Nielz wrote:
Falacy wrote:
You can copy multiple frames and then paste them in place over the existing ones (though pasting is currently screwed up in 443), then lower the frame count to remove mid-way frames. Same basic thing can be done to insert frames.

Yes, but that's not very convenient as it's prone to confusion since it may require counting of frames, which is also very inconvenient since you can only see 9 frames no matter what.

And it's extremely time consuming, almost epic.
#15 Jul 10 2009, 3:18 am
In response to Nielz (#14)
Nielz wrote:
And it's extremely time consuming, almost epic.

I could see the counting of frames complaint, having them numbered definitely wouldn't hurt, but time consuming? Whats it take like 10 seconds to highlight from point A to the end, copy, paste, and click the frame count down arrow? Yea that's some epic time consumption right there.
#16 Jul 10 2009, 3:54 am (Edited on Jul 10 2009, 4:26 am)
In response to Falacy (#15)
Falacy wrote:
Nielz wrote:
And it's extremely time consuming, almost epic.

I could see the counting of frames complaint, having them numbered definitely wouldn't hurt, but time consuming? Whats it take like 10 seconds to highlight from point A to the end, copy, paste, and click the frame count down arrow? Yea that's some epic time consumption right there.



That is anything but a flexible method; the way you describe it would only be convenient for moving frames at the end of the row over to the beginning of the row. It still doesn't allow easy insertion of new frames or removal of existing frames in the not-end or not-beginning of the icon state.

It's hard to understand why these features haven't been added throughout the past already, because the features we are suggesting here are essential, basic features that ANY user-friendly graphic editing tool - with animated graphic editing - should have.

I am very sure that, at least this very feature, would not be hard to code into Dream Maker, and all of the iconers out there would be very grateful for it, eventhough they might not have thought of such features before.

It's not because people don't complain about something because they don't know any better, that they wouldn't welcome new improvements that make life easier.

Non-inventive minds would never have thought about putting wheels on something to make it move more easily, but look how indispensable the wheel has become.
#17 Jul 10 2009, 3:58 am
In response to Nielz (#16)
Nielz wrote:
That is anything but a flexible method; the way you describe it would only be convenient when moving frames at the end of the row over to the beginning of the row, it still doesn't allow easy insertion of new frames or removal of existing frames in the not-end or not-beginning of the icon state.

Clearly you don't understand the method... you can easily remove or insert frames at any point with it.

It's hard to understand why these features haven't been added throughout the past already, because the features we are suggesting here are essential, basic features that ANY user-friendly graphic editing tool - with animated graphic editing - should have.

I don't see why that's hard to understand, almost every part of the icon maker in DM is lacking. It doesn't even have all of the features of MS paint... not exactly impressive.
#18 Jul 10 2009, 4:05 am
In response to Falacy (#17)
Falacy wrote:
Nielz wrote:
That is anything but a flexible method; the way you describe it would only be convenient when moving frames at the end of the row over to the beginning of the row, it still doesn't allow easy insertion of new frames or removal of existing frames in the not-end or not-beginning of the icon state.

Clearly you don't understand the method... you can easily remove or insert frames at any point with it.

It's hard to understand why these features haven't been added throughout the past already, because the features we are suggesting here are essential, basic features that ANY user-friendly graphic editing tool - with animated graphic editing - should have.

I don't see why that's hard to understand, almost every part of the icon maker in DM is lacking. It doesn't even have all of the features of MS paint... not exactly impressive.


That's exactly why I personally find it so hard to understand; it is so lacking and yet, nobody has thought of improving it. What's up with that?
#19 Jul 10 2009, 4:43 am
In response to Falacy (#17)
Falacy wrote:
Nielz wrote:
That is anything but a flexible method; the way you describe it would only be convenient when moving frames at the end of the row over to the beginning of the row, it still doesn't allow easy insertion of new frames or removal of existing frames in the not-end or not-beginning of the icon state.

Clearly you don't understand the method... you can easily remove or insert frames at any point with it.

It's hard to understand why these features haven't been added throughout the past already, because the features we are suggesting here are essential, basic features that ANY user-friendly graphic editing tool - with animated graphic editing - should have.

I don't see why that's hard to understand, almost every part of the icon maker in DM is lacking. It doesn't even have all of the features of MS paint... not exactly impressive.

I'm not sure what method you're referring to. Copying a number of frames from the end of the animation and pasting them at the beginning (or vice-versa) then reducing the frame count accordingly is a pretty barbaric way of accomplishing what we're talking about. Have you ever had to do this with 46 frames of animation? It's woefully inefficient and needlessly difficult. If frames were treated differently and could be moved/added/deleted then the 'method' you've described would be unnecessary.

I don't see why it couldn't be changed to treat frames in this way. DM already does this for regular states, the process should be the same for the frames of movie states.
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