Libraries in BYOND Discussion

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ID:136311
 
Jan 7 2003, 7:20 pm
I don't think there is a way to do this because I haven't seen it done before on BYOND. I won't release a library because releasing the source code is practically handing someone a few hours of my life. I would gladly post and make more libraries if doing so didn't give away the source. What I would like is a way to let other people use the library, but they don't get the source code. They would get the compiled library, and be able to call events in it just like they had the code, but they can't edit it, call it their own, etc. Then, when a game is run, it outputs to the user's message log a list of libraries used and the author of each. This way, the author gets credit, people get to use the product of their hard work, and no code has to be given away.
#1 Jan 7 2003, 7:22 pm
OneFishDown wrote:
I would gladly post and make more libraries if doing so didn't give away the source.

Unfortunately, that means we'll be bereft of the gift of your generosity.
#2 Jan 7 2003, 7:39 pm
In response to Deadron (#1)
Deadron wrote:
Unfortunately, that means we'll be bereft of the gift of your generosity.

I am generous. Most people are greedy. Why should generously I share my hard work with greedy people that will throw it in their games and call it their own? I am generous, not that generous.

So BYOND would suffer. Wouldn't it be nice if some games had a first person perspective? Why should I make a library for it when people are just going to claim it as their own, and throw it into games needlessly? Or, if I made a complex library (more than a couple hundred lines), the way it is now I would never give away my hard work.

I could see myself releasing libraries so that people could study them and learn how things are done. However, I know that 99.9% of the library's downloads would not be for that purpose.
#3 Jan 7 2003, 8:59 pm
OneFishDown wrote:
I don't think there is a way to do this because I haven't seen it done before on BYOND. I won't release a library because releasing the source code is practically handing someone a few hours of my life. I would gladly post and make more libraries if doing so didn't give away the source. What I would like is a way to let other people use the library, but they don't get the source code. They would get the compiled library, and be able to call events in it just like they had the code, but they can't edit it, call it their own, etc. Then, when a game is run, it outputs to the user's message log a list of libraries used and the author of each. This way, the author gets credit, people get to use the product of their hard work, and no code has to be given away.

I was thinking of requesting this a long while ago and I think this is a fantastic idea. For one, the author can give credit to theirself without the coder(ie the one using the library) editing out the credit. For two, errr...I don't really have a a for two..sorry.
#4 Jan 7 2003, 9:02 pm
In response to OneFishDown (#2)
I've made a few librarys myself and I can say that it will help out low lifes, but it will also benefit newbies having a hard time grasping a certain topic. Even if they do try to say it's their own, it will never get on the librarys page allong with yours. And about the advanced library, make people pay a little for it so you will only get people that really need it (Of course you don't need to, thats just what I like to do), and also, make that type of library on something people would need for things that arn't on the front lines of the game (a library on a say code would not be a good library to put out, but would be a good add in for a tutorial or demo.)
#5 Jan 8 2003, 4:45 am
The main problem with this is adapting the ibrary to suit your game when its comiled therre are no ways to actually play with it. For example lets say S_smileys. You could not add your own smileys to the library, it would need quite alot of comments on how to actually use the library without even seeing how it works. Yes it may stop a few newbies claiming it as there own, but its the people that you talk to that are really missing out on that.
#6 Jan 8 2003, 5:21 am
In response to Maz (#5)
Maz wrote:
For example lets say S_smileys. You could not add your own
smileys to the library...

If that library was split into separate files - one containing a text file for storing smileys, and one containing the library engine (that translated the smileys into their graphical equivalents) - then this 'compiled library' concept would work.

In the case of Spuzzums smiley library, though, that would mean he needs to change the system so that you can build smileys on the fly from a list of 'parts' - sorty like a smiley version of Mr. Potatoe Head.
#7 Jan 8 2003, 11:59 am
In response to OneFishDown (#2)
OneFishDown wrote:
I am generous. Most people are greedy. Why should generously I share my hard work with greedy people that will throw it in their games and call it their own? I am generous, not that generous.

Since the compiled library concept isn't going to happen (certainly not anytime soon), it's too bad that worrying about whether you'll get credit or not trumps adding value to the community and helping make BYOND more successful.

If you want credit for your library being used in games, you have to first create a library. I've gotten credit, as has AbyssDragon, and Spuzzum, and others. If I hadn't made any libraries I wouldn't have gotten any credit.

People who don't give credit are usually making games you wouldn't want to be associated with anyway, and aren't worth worrying about.

So it's your choice: Make a library and get credit in the quality games that use it, or don't make a library and get no credit.
#8 Jan 8 2003, 12:16 pm
In response to Deadron (#7)
Deadron wrote:
Since the compiled library concept isn't going to happen (certainly not anytime soon)

That's a shame.
#9 Jan 8 2003, 12:47 pm
In response to OneFishDown (#8)
OneFishDown wrote:
Deadron wrote:
Since the compiled library concept isn't going to happen (certainly not anytime soon)

That's a shame.

Not really -- fortunately the people who have shown the most talent in the community also tend to be people who are happy to release libraries and write articles and answer questions and generally help the rest of the community, thereby helping BYOND succeed, thereby making it more likely that their own games will be played.

These people know that being generous will result in them getting a bigger audience, as well as a lot of grateful people who give them credit in their games and posts.
#10 Jan 8 2003, 2:39 pm
In response to digitalmouse (#6)
Never thought of that, but what I was planning on was a parser that would identify emoticons and automatically transform them into the appropriate smileys. No more massive database of smileys in the file, in other words.

Thanks for the pointer!
#11 Jan 8 2003, 3:48 pm (Edited on Jan 10 2003, 7:31 pm)
In response to Deadron (#9)
Is it better to teach someone how to write a pathfinding routine or to give them one? It's awful nice of these people to make libraries, but if people don't learn from them, what good are they doing? I'd gladly explain to anyone how my pathfinding routine works, but I wouldn't freely distribute the source code.

To my way of thinking, a guru is someone who usually does what is best for the community. They would teach/show people how to do something, instead of saying, "here's the finished product, just stick it in your game and it works." Helping BYOND succeed isn't (proverbially speaking) giving people fish, instead it's teaching people how to fish.
#12 Jan 8 2003, 4:05 pm
In response to OneFishDown (#11)
Technically, a Guru doesn't have to actually help anyone to achieve that status.

It seems the term is used in the BYOND community to describe an influential teacher, but to achieve the title of a Guru you would only have to be an expert in a certain field (Example: I am a "Super Smash Bros: Melee" guru because I am undefeated at the game). (You could also be a Hindu spiritual teacher, but I doubt anyone on BYOND fits into that category)

As your library statement goes, I have to completely agree with Deadron on this one. Of course there will be a few that you will never get credit from, but those people are people you wouldn't want any from to begin with. According to your calculations, 99.9% of the library's downloads would not be for learning purposes; I find this very wrong, if they take the time to incorporate it into their programming, and figure out how to do this successfully, then your task of teaching them something new has succeeded.

From what I have seen of your work, the community would benefit substantially from your aid.

Lance
...Guardian of Dragons...
#13 Jan 8 2003, 4:06 pm
In response to OneFishDown (#11)
Would you want to have to comprehend and then rewrite htmllib (for example) before you were allowed to use it? Me neither...

That's my 2 cents.
#14 Jan 8 2003, 4:12 pm
In response to Crispy (#13)
Crispy wrote:
Would you want to have to comprehend and then rewrite htmllib (for example) before you were allowed to use it? Me neither...

Notice I don't use it. They don't have to write it, as long as they understand it. How many people use libraries for saving characters, and how many of them could write their own? My point is, it's better for BYOND to teach people, instead of handing them a 20 page library. I could explain to someone how to make a pathfinding routine in under a half an hour. It would take someone longer than that to see how it works just by looking at the code.
#15 Jan 8 2003, 4:17 pm
In response to OneFishDown (#14)
OneFishDown wrote:
I could explain to someone how to make a pathfinding routine in under a half an hour.

Okay then, write an article for BYONDscape on the subject. :-)
#16 Jan 8 2003, 4:19 pm
In response to OneFishDown (#14)
Then why are you using DM instead of learning how to write it from scratch?
#17 Jan 8 2003, 4:21 pm
In response to Garthor (#16)
Well said, Garthor. =D
#18 Jan 8 2003, 4:33 pm
In response to Garthor (#16)
There is no good answer I can think of besides "Try using common sense."
#19 Jan 8 2003, 4:45 pm
In response to digitalmouse (#6)
Hey that's my idea =]. Although seriously I could explain the logic behind it if your interested Spuzzum (or I ever get around to making my version I don't fell like doing the parsing...)
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