Poplava Challenge #1 in Off Topic

ID:114547
 
Jun 14 2011, 10:18 pm

Poll: Do you want the PopLava Challenge theme to change?

Yes 55% (24)
No 32% (14)
lima beans 11% (5)

Login to vote.

A fair number of people have been grumbling over the theme choice (Hexagons) since the announcement and while a little was expected, I have no way to know if too many have. I'd like to take this moment to do a sanity check and see if anyone is pushing forward with the hexagon challenge? If you are, please vote and take a moment to comment on any investments you've already made.

I will not change the competition if we have a strong showing of hexagon based efforts.

If anyone has made progress on a hexagon based entry, no worries, we'll make sure it remains a legal entry if the competition theme changes.

Well, where do we stand?

#1 Jun 14 2011, 10:33 pm
I think that, while it's not particularly difficult to implement hexagons and associated movement, it's a weird requirement because BYOND is designed for tile-based games. I think too much time will be spent trying to make the hexagon system work well where it's not actually supported natively than will be spent making a fun game.
#2 Jun 14 2011, 10:54 pm
For me personally, it's just a very inopportune time to be having a challenge.
#3 Jun 14 2011, 11:12 pm
@Koil - Your statement contradicts itself so I'm not sure how to argue it. I've been making some progress on the side and it's been going well. No major technical hurdles at all.

When (and if) I get to the AI, that's when I'll have the challenge of "reading" the "board" and determining where to move. We'll see how tall that hurdle is pretty soon.
#4 Jun 14 2011, 11:38 pm
Where is the contradiction?
#5 Jun 14 2011, 11:56 pm
One big point of challenges is to challenge participants by forcing them to work outside of their comfort zones.

Not liking this challenge for the hexes is like not liking the GIAD for the mandatory theme or the Cartridge Classic for the 8kb code size limit. You can't just expect to run with an idea that you've been sitting on for these sort of challenges; you need to create a new game concept around the themes and the limits.

While I do agree that hexes in general are not really something that shows off BYOND's capabilities (since this contest is geared towards flash-client-capable games), it's not difficult to incorporate hexes into some facet of gameplay in almost any game.

Keep the hexes. 60 days is more than enough time for any competent developer to learn how to represent a hex grid in both abstract and aesthetic.
#6 Jun 15 2011, 5:29 am
@Koil:
You said it wasn't difficult but it would take a lot of time which is a sort of contradiction in terms of software development although, that is easily debatable as I think of proactive counter arguments. :)
#7 Jun 15 2011, 6:20 am
1. Unless the resources you've provided offer hex grid equivalents of view, get_step, step_to, etc. then it's putting a burden on the developers. Themes often pose limitations (ex: design the game to work with the flash client) but aren't burdens. Limitations make it challenging, burdens make it annoying.

2. If the purpose is to get games ready that'll work with the flash client, we'll need more than just games that use hex grids. Also, when it's not clear what the flash client will support and how well it'll work, it's probably a better idea to stay inside the bounds of what BYOND does best.
#8 Jun 15 2011, 1:26 pm (Edited on Jun 15 2011, 1:54 pm)
As Forum_account said, a theme is a direction and an inspiration, not simply a requirement. The theme choice of Hexagons translates to a requirement of movement on a hexagonal grid for most, if not all, of the developers who want to participate. This theme is nothing but a barrier to entry.

I don't see how you can even use your judging criteria with this theme. All entries are going to use a hexagonal grid for movement, so all should get the same number of points. There's no way to be inventive or to use the theme in unexpected ways. The only way to make your entry stand out is to use irregular hexagons to break up regions in the map, and then for all intents and purposes you're not even using the theme; as far as gameplay is concerned, a map filled with irregular hexagons is the same as a map filled with arbitrary polygons.

I do believe that you will get an very disappointing number of entries (maybe one playable game - maybe) if you continue with the hexagon theme. On the other hand, there's no reason not to choose a theme with a broad number of interpretations. Or to go without a theme. Or to announce several themes.
#9 Jun 15 2011, 5:37 pm
im pushing foward with the challange sweet hex and hella gon vs the evil octogons is currently being worked on.
#10 Jun 16 2011, 12:01 am
@Forum_Account:
The hex grid I provided is just pixel shifted turfs so all basic turf logic applies and works as you would expect.

I created a movement system for the hex example tonight with validation highlighting and it turned out to be really easy.

@General:
Going to give it one more day. I haven't seen too many comments on active projects but a healthy number of people voted to keep the theme and I haven't voted my 2 yet. At this point, I'm leaning toward opening it up. Regardless of the choice, lets try to keep it fun and light-hearted.

#11 Jun 16 2011, 9:43 am
Let it with no Specific Themes but give it limitations like Forum Account said.
#12 Jun 16 2011, 9:50 am
regardless if the change occurs or not, we still get our lima beans you promised us right?
#13 Jun 16 2011, 11:48 am
PopLava wrote:
@Forum_Account:
The hex grid I provided is just pixel shifted turfs so all basic turf logic applies and works as you would expect.

Again, I haven't looked at the demo, but if you're just offsetting tiles and using the underlying square grid, view(1) will return all atoms in the 9 tiles nearest the center, but on a hex grid it should only be 7 tiles.

I'd also expect that get_step(src, dir) wouldn't return the same relative tile in all cases. If you called step(src, NORTH) repeatedly, you'd alternate between moving up+left and up+right.