Schnitzelnagler

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Joined: Feb 03, 03

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The values the Naruto series tries to convey with special regards to BYOND

Since the average BYOND customer seems to be attracted to Animé themed games, I decided to do a little "field research".
As Naruto is within the top three, I decided to watch the series in order to be capable of judging the games and communicating with the community.

Now, when I did listen to one of the theme songs, I was astonished seeing how the values that the song and the series most likely try to get across are not reflected at all in the BYOND Animé community.

The theme referred to as a whole:

"We are Fighting Dreamers aiming high
Fighting Dreamers don't care what people think about them
Fighting Dreamers follow what they believe
Oli Oli Oli Oh! Just go my way

Right here right now (Bang)
Hit it straight like a line drive!
Right here right now (Burn)
We're gonna do it and do our best!

Down a difficult road filled with endless struggles
Where do you think you are going following someone else's map?
A wise crow comes along to tear up the map
Now open your eyes and take a look at the truth (Yeah!)
There's nothing to loose, so let's GO!

We are Fighting Dreamers aiming high
Fighting Dreamser don't care what people think bout them
Fighting Dreamers follow what they believe
Oli Oli Oli Oh! Just go my way

Right here right now (Bang)
Hit it straight like a ine dive!
Right here right now (Burn)
We're gonna do it and do our best! Bang!
Right here right now (Bang)
Hit it straight like a line drive
Right here right now (Burn)
We're gona do it and do our best! Bang!"

Please allow me to get into detail now.

"Fighting Dreamers don't care what people think about them"
It seems that those playing care a lot about what others think of them. Heated flame wars, the desire to show what one's capable of and the reaction when someone defies the effort put forth to achieve a certain goal clearly point in that direction.
Sometimes, stepping back, rethinking an opposing position, taking criticism without reacting sore and staying calm (polite) might be useful and help the community.

"Where do you think you are going following someone else's map?"
To a community filled with stealing other peoples work, this ought to look like sheer mockery.
Even the very rare case that someone created source code and art on her own still leaves them stealing the copyrighted theme and general ideas.
People call this "fan fiction", trying to sound less like theft, but that is putting lipstick on the pig.
Sometime going through the (painful and hard) way of creating an own idea might pay off for everyone. Can your dream (Build Your Own Net Dream) be really the dream of someone else, or is that not more like taking the easy way and copying?

"Right here right now (Burn)
We're gonna do it and do our best!
Down a difficult road filled with endless struggles"
These people that take a source code, edit it slightly and release it as their own, did they take a difficult road?
Doesn't this try to encourage us to fight our way through learning the language and create something to be proud of?
Do the heroes of this series not work with blood and sweat to gain the abilities they possess (sharingan aside *smiles*, see I learned something!)?
Now, the brave reader is prone to reply that learning DM is too tricky, that she tried and couldn't overcome the obstacles in her way.
But this is where BYOND would desperately need your help. This is where you could shine and become a hero yourself!
Point out your problems to those in charge.
Try to analyse your effort and failure by seeking help in the developers forum and upon succeeding, create a document to help those coming after you.
Evolve from Genin to Jonin, from scholar to teacher and help those that try to get past the same problems you did with finding their way.
Or, even better, help others with doing this!
Since often aspiring programmers tend to overestimate their abilities after first success, clearly describe where you encountered problems and try to work together with experienced developers (Alathon, Stephen001, Tiberath, just to name a few) to get an article for the Developers guild, or even a better guide/tutorial.

I want to conclude this with a quote:
"Now open your eyes and take a look at the truth (Yeah!)
There's nothing to loose, so let's GO!"

Posted by Schnitzelnagler on Monday, April 27, 2009 02:05AM - 34 comments / Members say: yea +3, nay -0

Ripping - Reasons, measures and suggestions »

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#34 Tiberath:  

Daveygilmour wrote:
> wow guys lives dont cost money

Gramma.

It turns the sentence "your father helped your uncle jack off a horse" into "Your father help your uncle Jack, off a horse".

Keep that in mind sir.

Saturday, May 02, 2009 06:50PM

#33 Daveygilmour:  

wow guys lives dont cost money

Saturday, May 02, 2009 05:27PM

#32 DemonSpree:  

Masterdan can only talk in huge walls of text that basically just say "I'm right, your wrong".

Anyone who can actually bother to read his posts has some godlike power.

Friday, May 01, 2009 01:11PM

#31 Tiberath:  

And once again, the metaphor has gone right over your head. Perhaps I should just start saying things in simple English...

And don't worry Masterdan, the feeling is mutual. I have nothing good to say about you either. =)

Thursday, April 30, 2009 01:45AM

#30 Masterdan:  

Sorry, you think me calling you a troll for saying that Im close minded for giving my opinion is itself evidense of me being close minded? It is not constructive criticism to berate about with that attitude that everything I say is invalided by the fact that YOU think im too opinionated.

What is this random tangent? drinking and being thrown out? nono, see you are the one instigating a fight, I chose to approach this topic with civil discourse, you chose to be a flaming prick. I cant help that you are interested in causing shit Tiberath, I cant. I have nothing good to say about you and your shitty attitude and I have no intent on discussing it further.

Thursday, April 30, 2009 01:43AM

#29 Tiberath:  

Hey! There it is again! It's the "everything I say is absolute truth, I can't possibly be wrong. You're wrong, I'm not listening to you, I'm superior and you're pick("a troll", "undermining me", "obviously clueless", "inferior in every way")" attitude I keep seeing.

Who knows, maybe one day you'll make a post that doesn't scream "yes ladies, I'm just that fantastic".

You kind of remind me of that really, really drunk guy at the pub. You know, the one who's obviously had far too much to drink, be he knows a guy so the bouncers wont throw him out.

Thursday, April 30, 2009 01:32AM

#28 Masterdan:  

Like I had earlier, Tiberath? Maybe I felt my points were made and replying to point-by-point replies has no end, I felt my points were made and i had no intent to continue debating, Schnitzelnagler has pointed out he doesnt think this will accomplish anything and that was more than good enough for me. Also, as you may have noticed, I replied to your insult with another insult, Im merely pointing out that you shouldnt play innocent and pretend like you have been a stoic rational person in this topic. It is one thing to call each other names, fine, I dont mind doing that, but to go back and analyze it and critique me for doing it.. even though you also dropped the random insult in the first place, is just beyond unacceptable. At least man up if you are going to be a troll, dont hide behind the facade that you have used your brain once in this entire thread. Ffs.

Thursday, April 30, 2009 01:21AM

#27 Tiberath:  

Zaole wrote:
> Then why are you responding to him? Be the bigger man and just stop.

It's a battle of the egos. =)

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 08:27PM

#26 Tiberath:  

Masterdan wrote:
> I addressed all his points,

You missed an entire, large, post of his which came directly after my comment. It would have been impossible for you to not see it, and yet you responded only to my insult.

> you're the moron who started criticizing me for having an opinion in the first place.

I wasn't criticising you. I was insulting you. There's a subtle difference. You criticise someone you're trying to help, you insult someone you just don't like. I think it's pretty clear that I don't like you.

> I dont have to greet you with some rational argument when all you brought to the conversation was "Masterdan is talking?! all hail Masterdan for having an opinion" nonsense.

Oh dear sir. If you didn't structure yourself in the "everything I say is absolute truth, you're clearly wrong, I win" manor, I wouldn't have made my comment.

In reality, if you consider I'm being a troll (see last sentence of your own comment), then the proper response would be to not greet me at all. But you just couldn't do that, could you?

> I didnt see you contribute a single logical point to this entire thread

First post in the thread. Pointing out a flaw in part of the argument, debunking my own argument and agreeing with Snalger. Also my reply to The Magic Man.

I think you need less selective vision. You seem to focus on one post, make one reply, and then consider your job done. The problem is, you never actually pick the correct post to reply to.

> Tiberath, you are clearly being a troll.

Hey, I figured it was my turn to. After all, why should you have all the fun?

--

And that Masterdan is how you reply to an argument. Take every point being made, and reply to it.

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 08:27PM

#25 Jeff8500:  

Your respect level is now over 9000.

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 02:07PM

#24 Popisfizzy:  

Masterdan wrote:
> you are clearly being a troll.

Oh man, his ace in the hole! God damn, son. If this line never existed, I think you'd totally be fucked in an argument.

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 01:40PM
(Edited on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 02:07PM)

#23 Zaole:  

Masterdan wrote:
> I addressed all his points,

You're mistaken-- you haven't replied to Schnitzel's latest comment.

>you're the moron [...]

Mature.

> I didnt see you contribute a single logical point to this entire thread Tiberath, you are clearly being a troll.
>

Then why are you responding to him? Be the bigger man and just stop.

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 12:20PM

#22 Masterdan:  

I addressed all his points, you're the moron who started criticizing me for having an opinion in the first place. I dont have to greet you with some rational argument when all you brought to the conversation was "Masterdan is talking?! all hail Masterdan for having an opinion" nonsense.

I didnt see you contribute a single logical point to this entire thread Tiberath, you are clearly being a troll.

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 12:15PM

#21 Tiberath:  

Popisfizzy wrote:
> Yea, Masterdan is not particularly capable in the matters of deep thought.

I just love the way he argues.

He'll argue with often repetitive and on occasion contradictory points. He'll ignore most of the points another user argues with and only reply to some of the weaker arguments in the guys post (or only to the next guy along if someone else's post is just that bit too much).

It's quite funny to watch actually.

Tuesday, April 28, 2009 08:38PM

#20 Tiberath:  

You know, every anime out there does try to convey some kind of message. Sometimes they're more subtle than others.

Naruto is no exception. Just because the message is shallow, doesn't mean it is non-existent.

Tuesday, April 28, 2009 08:31PM

#19 The Magic Man:  

Obviously certain people in this topic have not read enough Manga, or seen nearly enough anime.

The "values", "themes" or "deeper meanings" manga like Naruto tries to convey are shallow at best.
Even when it tries to be highly serious, it turns out to be nothing more than boring, at worst a laughable joke.
Want real deep and thought provoking shounen? Go read One Piece. It made the disposal of a BOAT, which was not even a character, had no personality, dialoug or any real presense at all sadder than anything I have ever seen in any other shounen.
Kind of makes you laugh when you think about it.

Tuesday, April 28, 2009 06:36PM

#18 Popisfizzy:  

Yea, Masterdan is not particularly capable in the matters of deep thought.

Tuesday, April 28, 2009 03:18PM

#17 Zaole:  

I shall now take us into the mind of Masterdan, 5 minutes ago:

"hmmm... I could respond to the well-thought out post that addressed each argument I made, or I could just respond hatefully to some other hateful comment and as a result make it look like I'm the winner of this argument without having to put forth any further logical discussion.

well gee, this is an easy choice."

Tuesday, April 28, 2009 02:48PM

#16 Masterdan:  

Tiberath wrote:
> I'm sorry Snagler, the great Masterdan has spoken. We all know when Masterdan speaks, the discussion is over, because he is clearly infallible.
>
> All hail Masterdan.

Continuing to be a douchebag i see.

Tuesday, April 28, 2009 02:45PM

#15 Schnitzelnagler:  

Masterdan wrote:
> Just because somebody is a fan of a show doesnt mean that the ethics and message being brought through the introductory song has any bearing on making games. It is just too weak a rational point.

Actually, tales and metaphors often contain a certain message of moral that they are trying to indoctrinate.
You might call it a sugar coated philosophy lesson to make the bitter pill less troublesome for children to swallow.
If the cause succeeds is surely up for debate and I am actually trying to make the point that it does not in this case, even though I think the community would profit if it would.


Masterdan wrote:
> Also you ignore the fact that there are many different characters in the Naruto show, while Naruto might be hot-headed, hard working and cares about people there are other character that are far more popular such as Sasuke who is introverted, only cares about himself and bent on power from any source (ripping).

I by no means neglect this, as it encourages my point.
In a basic "black and white" moral lesson, you need to supply both good and evil, else the point would be vain.
Like someone once said, without evil, you could never define good, like you can not tell what light is without knowing darkness.

I have not finished my experiment, so please excuse my lack of knowledge in this segment. I can only assume that Sasuke is going to become the next evil, as the plot seems to hint that way to me (I'm only at episode 99).
That would indicate that the series indeed displays Sasukes way as evil.
The fact that a massive amount of younger people are indeed attracted by "evil" characters (I r want b coolz gangsta) would lead to a long debate on various social aspects of modern life, which would kind of burst the size of a blog comment.


Masterdan wrote:
> when you try to draw actual logical points from the theme song you already lost the strength of your actual argument.

And yet, when you take a careful look, you can see that the same topics are addressed in the very animé broadcast itself (I did not read the manga, so I won't be able to judge that) and are assigned values.
The theme song just highlights them in a clearer to understand way.


Masterdan wrote:
> (...)the messages of the show are far less clear and ideologically different characters split. Naruto refuses to give up and gets through with willpower, him and Rock Lee are characters that follow the hard work doctrine. However Sasuke, orochimaru etc follow the get power through any means necessary approach which would be more in line with rip

Exactly.
And now look which characters represent good and which represent evil.
Get something done yourself, earning it by working for it => Good (guy);
Take the easy way and copy other people's creative ideas => Evil (guy);


Masterdan wrote:
> becoming a better ninja and programming a better ninja game are hardly the same

Becoming a better (good) ninja and becoming a better person seem rather similar to me though. Like I said, I never included any kind of quality remarks in my posting, I was solely talking about not stealing.
And to be blunt out honest with you, most governments seem to agree with me that trying to avoid stealing makes you a better person ;)


Masterdan wrote:
> (...)these kids spend a futile amount of time in a community that wont tolerate their spellings errors

That is just not true.
What people frown upon is when someone does not take time and effort to write a good enough posting, but asks others to take the time and code their game for them.
There is a difference in that.


Masterdan wrote:
> (...) more simple tutorials need to be advertised to them.

You're running in open doors with me there. Yet, I still think that in order to get this one working, you'd have to truly understand the difficulties.
Which is something I pointed out in my blog post.


Masterdan wrote:
> (...)what you should do is just be straightforward and talk to this audience directly.

Last time I told someone on the CA forum that "Me and this guy make the game" is not a valid description and thus will not really encourage others to help him, the reply was "shut up, I hate people like you".
The straight forward attempt does not seem to work.


Masterdan wrote:
> Dispel the myth that no games are original

Actually, that is no myth.
A game stealing/copying content can hardly be considered original/creative.
Soon as a game's name contains the term "Naruto/Dragonball/Bleach/..." it is no longer original by definition of the word.


Masterdan wrote:
> (...)Im not against the points you are making but i feel this is a silly and inarticulate way of making them.

Actually, I do not try to do anything.
I am well aware of the facts that the average animé programmer does not read blog posts and even less mine and least of all would consider a valid discussion as in trying to comprehend an argument.
So, I'm in a very good position. Not trying to achieve anything means I can not fail on my task!


Masterdan wrote:
> You dont need to watch Naruto to connect to the anime crowd

Oh, yes, I do.
I tried playing two Naruto games (one of which was Naruto GOA). After less than 5 minutes I surrendered.
But I tend to try and provide facts when arguing, as I try and give constructive criticism instead of just saying: "No, not like that".
While watching Naruto I had various enlightening ideas on what might be improved on Naruto games.

Tuesday, April 28, 2009 04:36AM

 

 

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#4 Schnitzelnagler:  

RosiannaTashal wrote:
> I should wait till I know better.

I have to thank you and can't wait to try out your game ;)
I hope you're going to become one of the more advanced members one day.

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 12:38PM

#3 RosiannaTashal:  

Oh, I see what you mean Schnitzelnagler. Seems I misunderstood YOU. Well, I do get what you mean. And happen to agree. Thanks, I do think that's correct. I should wait till I know better.

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 11:51AM

#2 Tiberath:  

Schnitzelnagler wrote:
> Please feel free to leave questions or feedback to everything (PG-13), but stay polite and civil.
>
> Thank you in advance.

Aw! I was refreshing the page like mad to get the first post.

Wednesday, October 07, 2009 05:22AM

#1 Schnitzelnagler:  

Please feel free to leave questions or feedback to everything (PG-13), but stay polite and civil.

Thank you in advance.

Wednesday, October 07, 2009 05:19AM

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