In response to Kaioken (#17)
So...I say we contact the owners of Dragon Ball Z, Bleach, and whatever his other fan game is. I'm just curious to see what would happen. None of us are law majors (I assume atleast), so none of us could say for sure what would happen.
In response to Jeff8500 (#20)
Jeff8500 wrote:
So...I say we contact the owners of Dragon Ball Z, Bleach, and whatever his other fan game is. I'm just curious to see what would happen. None of us are law majors (I assume atleast), so none of us could say for sure what would happen.

a. From what I hear nadrew has contacted them before
b. If I was offering the bonuses to BYOND members instead of SG Subs would you noobs still complain/attempt to get BYOND shut down? Because there'd really be no difference if I was doing things that way
c. You noobs that complain are just mad that my games make yours look like even bigger piles of crap. Instead of whining about it, why dont you learn how to make better games
d. This arguement was old the last 5 times you noobers attempted it, feel free to give it up any time


Kaioken wrote:
You don't go in court and claim you weren't dealing drugs because the guy was simply donating to you for free and you gave him the crack in return as a thanks

Do you donate blood to get the little sticker?
Donate to charity to get a free hat/t-shirt?
I dont think you even know what the word donate means.
If someone were to randomly donate/"gift" someone money, and in return that person randomly gave them crack.
I wouldnt acuse the first person of attempting to buy drugs.
If you drop 20 dollars in a homeless guy's cup and he shoves crack in your face does that mean you committed a crime?
Not that I'd compare either situation to mine. Since no part of them even compares in the slightest

EDIT: On a side note. I agree that BYOND should have a visible ToS. One that you have to agree to in order to create an account
In response to Falacy (#21)
Falacy wrote:
c. You noobs that complain are just mad that my games make yours look like even bigger piles of crap. Instead of whining about it, why dont you learn how to make better games

Failed logic here. Time has shown that people will pay for anything, regardless of the quality of it. People paid for stuff in N:BotLS. That didn't make it look any better than it always had.
In response to Popisfizzy (#22)
Popisfizzy wrote:
Failed logic here. Time has shown that people will pay for anything, regardless of the quality of it. People paid for stuff in N:BotLS. That didn't make it look any better than it always had.

Who cares about paying? Even before I setup my sub system; my games were making the other ones on byond look like a 4 year old made them. CC2 was good, though short and hard to pick up. DBZHU is better then 99 if not 100% of the other DBZ games on byond. Some of the original games are better then it... but BE and CCN beat out most of those. There have only been about 5-10 games on byond that have ever managed to impress me. The rest all play exactly the same and just sport different graphics (if we're even that lucky)
In response to Falacy (#23)
Haha, although you have some huge ego I will back you up and say that what you are doing is not technically illegal.

Basically what Falacy is doing is selling a SERVICE, not the game or bonuses in the game, those things just happen to come when you purchase said service.
In the same way I could make a fan game and charge people to play it indirectly. I could for example set up a website that people need to pay be members of to download the game (I am charging them for membership to a website, not the game), or if the game is online and I am hosting it I could charge them for bandwidth and database costs (I am not charging you to play the game, I am charging you for my bandwidth that you are using and to store your information on my database, both of which just so happen to be a needed requirement to play the game).
You can even charge people for free, open source software that comes in a disk. Provided all you are charging them for is the cost of the disk (and potentially postage).

Though it sounds silly, provided you INDIRECTLY sell a fan game it is not illegal. But it has to be an indirect method with absolutely no way of it being direct.
For example, I can charge you for membership to my website which is required to download and play my fan game. But that is all I am allowed to charge you for. If you download the game off another website or someone sends it to you there cannot under any circumstances be this fee still attatched to it.
Or I cannot attatch any fees if you are not using my bandwidth/database but someone else.
In response to The Magic Man (#24)
"Oh, no, officer. I'm not selling drugs - that would be illegal. I'm merely providing them in exchange for membership to my exclusive junkies club."
In response to Hazman (#25)
There is just one small difference.
Drugs are illegal regardless of whether you're selling them or not. But still, provided you are not accepting money in the direct exchange of drugs then it is not drug dealing. (Giving drugs out to members of your club is not drug dealing, even if those people have to pay to be part of the club).

Well... So are fan games (unless you have been given permission to make one), but people care about drugs. No one cares about your little Naruto mega ninja game.
In response to The Magic Man (#26)
The Magic Man wrote:
There is just one small difference.
Drugs are illegal regardless of whether you're selling them or not. But still, provided you are not accepting money in the direct exchange of drugs then it is not drug dealing. (Giving drugs out to members of your club is not drug dealing, even if those people have to pay to be part of the club).

The illegality of drug dealing is in the distribution, not the monetary exchange. It's just as illegal to give out drugs as it is to sell them.
In response to Hazman (#27)
Where I live that is not the case. Unless money is exchanged for the drugs it is not drug dealing but some other (probably lesser) crime. Unless police have witnessed or have proof of the exchange of money for drugs then they cannot arrest someone for drug dealing.

But regardless of the laws around drugs. Fan games are illegal, selling them is illegal, but indirectly making profit off them is not illegal.
But to the people who can do anything about this those fan games are probably worth less than a fart in the wind.
In response to The Magic Man (#26)
The Magic Man wrote:
There is just one small difference.
Drugs are illegal regardless of whether you're selling them or not.

That's off the point, and you are just nitpicking the example. FYI, however, dealing drugs is an additional and worse crime than just using them.

Well... So are fan games (unless you have been given permission to make one), but people care about drugs. No one cares about your little Naruto mega ninja game.

Clearly failed logic again. It doesn't matter what people think about it, if it's the current law, then it's the current law, and you just don't make sense. That would be like murdering Falacy and getting away with it because nobody cares. And trust me, it would've been done if it was legal.
In response to Kaioken (#29)
Wrong. In this case it DOES matter if people care about it.
Though a fan game is an illegal thing police cannot just come and arrest you for it like they could if you murdered someone. Unless someone persues legal action against you then you are free to make fan games until your fingers drop off and "get away with it" (because no one cares enough to do anything about it).
In response to Falacy (#21)
Falacy wrote:
b. If I was offering the bonuses to BYOND members instead of SG Subs would you noobs still complain/attempt to get BYOND shut down?

Your logic is missing. BYOND would not be shut down, because if any legal action is taken it would be against you, since you're the criminal. The fact you're using their tools to break the law doesn't change it to be your fault and responsibility; keeping on the examples, that would be like murdering someone with a knife and prosecuting the company that manufactured it.

Because there'd really be no difference if I was doing things that way

Except the obvious difference that you wouldn't be earning money from your fan game. That way it'd have truly been extra bonuses from a 3rd party to the BYOND membership.

c. You noobs that complain are just mad that my games make yours look like even bigger piles of crap. Instead of whining about it, why dont you learn how to make better games

Your egoistical unawareness and common sense is pathetic. I suppose you can't help it if you're a 10 year old, but it's extremely far-fetched anyone who knows what he's talking about would be jealous at you. Additionally, you are not even good in making games/programming, as is clear from a lot of your posts; many, many people are for a fact much better than you. And also in other things, English being one, which is another indicator of you being a much better "noob" nickname candidate.

d. This arguement was old the last 5 times you noobers attempted it, feel free to give it up any time

This "arguement" wasn't really even about you, but on fan games in general, when yours were brought up as an example. It was just hard to believe the law so easily passing up the abusing act of profiting from a different party's specific crowd (eg DBZ fans) just because you're also being paid for something else.

Kaioken wrote:
You don't go in court and claim you weren't dealing drugs because the guy was simply donating to you for free and you gave him the crack in return as a thanks

Do you donate blood to get the little sticker?
Donate to charity to get a free hat/t-shirt?
I dont think you even know what the word donate means.

How could you miss the point when stating it yourself? Donating means giving a 'gift' to support a cause. When you donate blood and to charity, you are not expecting something in return, neither do they always give you anything in return.
When people so-called "donate" to you, however, they are consistently and always getting X in return, and it is advertised, and it is what they expect. Most of them are not giving you money for your cause, but because you provide X in return. And, again, when you give X after someone pays you Y for it, it is selling, not donating.

If someone were to randomly donate/"gift" someone money, and in return that person randomly gave them crack.
I wouldnt acuse the first person of attempting to buy drugs.

Of course not, but you're missing the point:
The illegal act in question isn't buying, therefore, the buyer isn't automatically accused of anything. The illegal act we're discussing about is the selling things based on copyrighted work, or "fan work".

FYI, however-
If you drop 20 dollars in a homeless guy's cup and he shoves crack in your face does that mean you committed a crime?

If you took it, then yes, it does.

Not that I'd compare either situation to mine. Since no part of them even compares in the slightest

Maybe, maybe not. Since Nadrew basically said it's legal to do it if you're selling it in a differently-named package along with other things, I'll believe him. It doesn't make the actual act suddenly good-willed though, it just happens to be legal in this case.
In response to The Magic Man (#30)
The Magic Man wrote:
Wrong. In this case it DOES matter if people care about it.

Of course whether a party will prosecute or not matters. But what I said is that it doesn't change the un-right-ness and illegal-ness of the act.

Though a fan game is an illegal thing


police cannot just come and arrest you for it like they could if you murdered someone.

Actually, I think they could (provided an arrest was decided as suitable punishment) if they could just prove what you're doing is illegal. They are just not actively searching for such things because they have much more important things to fill all their time doing, like you said - murder, and more serious thefts. The police's most important job would be considered providing security - protecting life and possessions and enforcing their well being.
In response to Kaioken (#32)
I was refering to the fact that is no one cares about your fan game you wont get police busting down your door to send you to prison.
Unless someone goes to the police saying you are stealing their copyrighted material the police wont do anything about it. (Even then, except for very large usually commercial cases the police will not be involved, it will all be done through the court system)
Unlike a murder case where police will hunt you down and send you to prison even if the rest of the world doesn't care that you murdered someone.

Murder comes under criminal law, which is enforced by the government (usually by the police) and you will be punished for breaking it.
Copyright infringment comes under civil law, which is not enforced by the government, but by an individual (group, corporation or whatever) that is wronged. In the case of copyright infringment the only person who probably even cares that you are commiting the crime is the person you are stealing from, only they can take legal action agains you.
In response to Kaioken (#31)
Kaioken wrote:
Your logic is missing. BYOND would not be shut down, because if any legal action is taken it would be against you, since you're the criminal. The fact you're using their tools to break the law doesn't change it to be your fault and responsibility; keeping on the examples, that would be like murdering someone with a knife and prosecuting the company that manufactured it.

You suck at analogies dude

Your egoistical unawareness and common sense is pathetic. I suppose you can't help it if you're a 10 year old, but it's extremely far-fetched anyone who knows what he's talking about would be jealous at you. Additionally, you are not even good in making games/programming, as is clear from a lot of your posts; many, many people are for a fact much better than you. And also in other things, English being one, which is another indicator of you being a much better "noob" nickname candidate.

I'm far better than you at making games/programming and at english. So you really shouldnt be trying to throw that card on the table
In response to Falacy (#34)
This, sir, is where you fail. First of all, that actually is a decent analogy. As far as programming goes, I'm better than you, and I suck when compared to Kaioken. I've seen examples of code, and I could definitely improve them.
In response to Falacy (#34)
Falacy wrote:
You suck at analogies dude

'Fraid not; this is you sucking at common sense. You did make up some crap about BYOND possibly being shut down because it was reported that you used their program to break the law.

I'm far better than you at making games/programming and at english. So you really shouldnt be trying to throw that card on the table

Really? I suppose I don't need to define 'irony' for you, then. "Incidentally", you've proved yourself wrong in your own posts, even this specific post here. I wasn't even talking about myself specifically, but now that you point it out I shall go ahead and defend the insult of my intelligence; I'm certainly, and clearly, better than you in both areas... not that it's a very skill-requiring feat to achieve, though - sorry.
But really, I have no need to prove anything to you, so you're welcome to keep falsely claiming otherwise, I won't respond. Not only I care not, but the more intelligent people won't even believe such claims.
In response to Jeff8500 (#35)
Jeff8500 wrote:
This, sir, is where you fail. First of all, that actually is a decent analogy. As far as programming goes, I'm better than you, and I suck when compared to Kaioken. I've seen examples of code, and I could definitely improve them.

You and Kaioken can babel all you want about being better. Unless you get some proof (which will be impossible) it wont matter much to me, or probably to anyone else.

And about the Analogy:
As for buying a knife and holding the creators at fault for commiting murder with it; that in no way relates. The knife wasnt designed to murder people, unless it was some giant machete or something. A more accurate analogy would be buying a gun. Since I'm only using BYOND for what it was created for. And yes, when somebody murders somebody else with a gun; the person/company who created the gun AND the person that sold it to the murderer should both be held accountable.
In response to Falacy (#37)
Falacy wrote:
A more accurate analogy would be buying a gun. Since I'm only using BYOND for what it was created for. And yes, when somebody murders somebody else with a gun; the person/company who created the gun AND the person that sold it to the murderer should both be held accountable.

You are able to buy a gun without having the intent to shoot anyone at any point (even in self defence). It is how some people prefer to hunt and eat.

George Gough
In response to KodeNerd (#38)
KodeNerd wrote:
You are able to buy a gun without having the intent to shoot anyone at any point (even in self defence). It is how some people prefer to hunt and eat.

The hunting example is BS. First off nobody hunts with a handgun. And 2nd off, in very few areas of the USA would surviving off hunting even be legal/possible.
If you sell a rifle to some backwoods redneck then that fine. If you sell a handgun to some thug that comes in with 10 of his buddies off the street in NYC you should be put out of business.
Self defense COULD be a possible claim, but the solution isnt letting random people buy guns so they can defend themselves. Theres only 2 possible ways to fix the gun problem in the USA. Either give everybody a gun, or let nobody have one.
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