ID:120683
 Nov 1 2011, 1:07 am
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Nov 1 2011, 2:48 am
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EmpirezTeam
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Wow. That 20 minute video was more useful than anything I've ever seen anywhere else about game design. And all this time I thought he was just a guy who made funny animation videos.
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EmpirezTeam wrote:
Wow. That 20 minute video was more useful than anything I've ever seen anywhere else about game design. | |
El Wookie wrote:
EmpirezTeam wrote: | |
Mind Blown!!!
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I came into this video expecting someone to sperg out about how MMX wasn't as good as classic Mega man. Glad to see that wasn't the case, and he made some points that I really hadn't considered before.
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It makes you wonder what BYOND would be like if people focused on gameplay more. Most BYOND game developers put so much effort into getting a game to just barely function. Once the game is playable and you could start to tweak and improve the gameplay, the developer is burnt out. I hope this changes but I have no idea what it'll take to get it to happen.
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Forum_account wrote:
Most BYOND game developers put so much effort into getting a game to just barely function. Once the game is playable and you could start to tweak and improve the gameplay, the developer is burnt out. I hope this changes but I have no idea what it'll take to get it to happen. It's painful to work on something for so long then see little to no return on your investment. There seems to be a weird quality line on BYOND. If you put too much effort into a game and get it looking really nice it only makes whatever shortcomings you've had even more obvious. If you shoot for mediocrity it's much easier for players to look the other way. It might be crappy, but it's evenly crappy. | |
Forum_account wrote:
It makes you wonder what BYOND would be like if people focused on gameplay more. Most BYOND game developers put so much effort into getting a game to just barely function. Once the game is playable and you could start to tweak and improve the gameplay, the developer is burnt out. I hope this changes but I have no idea what it'll take to get it to happen. We need developers that actually care. But as I said in another thread, the people that DO care that much about game development are passing up BYOND for more advanced programs, meaning the majority of people who just treat game development as something to kill time are here with us. You can't MAKE someone care about making good games. They either do or they don't. It's why we have CSS blog posts dominating the front page. As of now all we can do is hope Flash gets some people interested. If that doesn't get some people in I'm not sure what can. Edit: Also, I don't think developers put any effort into getting games to function. How many times have you seen blog posts about game mechanics compared to posts about "My base", "My title screen", "My game's name". All the effort is being put into the things that don't really matter, and next to nothing is being put into what does. If developers realized people play games for the game play, and not the base, maybe more projects would get finished. | |
SuperAntx wrote:
If you shoot for mediocrity it's much easier for players to look the other way. It might be crappy, but it's evenly crappy. I think I get what you're saying but I wouldn't say that you're "shooting for mediocrity". It's a matter of balancing priorities. Focusing less on graphics so you can devote more time to other aspects of the game doesn't mean you're striving to create a mediocre game. It's like saying that you have to do these actions: 1. make graphics 2. improve the graphics 3. make the graphics awesome 4. create gameplay 5. improve the gameplay 6. make the gameplay awesome (same for sound, interface, etc.) Some people do those actions in order, some would do it as: 1, 4, 2, 5, 3, 6. In both cases you're setting out to make a good game, but if you only have enough motivation to complete 4 tasks, different orders produce different results. The people who did things in order would end up with a pretty game that's not fun to play. | |
Flash probably wont fix anything, but it'll at least give some of us a wider target audience. BYOND developers seem to have a lot of the same problems Japanese developers have. The home audience is too small and their tastes are too narrow, the only way to be truly successful is to appeal to gamers outside of your little bubble.
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SuperAntx wrote:
Flash probably wont fix anything, but it'll at least give some of us a wider target audience. BYOND developers seem to have a lot of the same problems Japanese developers have. The home audience is too small and their tastes are too narrow, the only way to be truly successful is to appeal to gamers outside of your little bubble. I was saying Flash would help get outsiders more interested in using BYOND to make their games. Not that Flash would get people here to start making games. I have no clue what it takes to do that. | |
EmpirezTeam wrote:
We need developers that actually care. But as I said in another thread, the people that DO care that much about game development are passing up BYOND for more advanced programs, meaning the majority of people who just treat game development as something to kill time are here with us. I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that BYOND users who get serious about game development end up using other tools instead? Or that people who could be serious BYOND game developers use different tools from the start without ever giving BYOND a try? I've said many times that BYOND doesn't appeal to the kind of developer it wants to have. I'm not sure why, but the BYOND staff doesn't seem interested in changing BYOND so that it would appeal to more serious game developers. I absolutely agree that the BYOND community is in its current state because BYOND tends to attract non-serious game developers. However, there are some decent game developers here but they aren't making games - I'm not sure why. Edit: Also, I don't think developers put any effort into getting games to function. How many times have you seen blog posts about game mechanics compared to posts about "My base", "My title screen", "My game's name". All the effort is being put into the things that don't really matter, and next to nothing is being put into what does. If developers realized people play games for the game play, and not the base, maybe more projects would get finished. I just meant that the game functions in the sense that players can log in and there's something for them to see. For example, people spend weeks making an inventory interface then lose motivation and don't make the interesting parts (bosses that drop items you can fill your inventory with). The people who focus on base icons can't be rehabilitated. They're just not serious game developers and they're never going to be. Hopefully upcoming changes to the BYOND website make it possible to filter out that segment of the community. | |
Trippy.
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Forum_account wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that BYOND users who get serious about game development end up using other tools instead? Or that people who could be serious BYOND game developers use different tools from the start? The latter. The more features BYOND has ( especially things like Flash which helps developers know they will be able to make games to reach larger audiences ), the more appealing it will be to people outside that are refusing to use it. Right now, there are too many reasons to use other programs. Dream Maker needs to be able to compete with them before we start seeing more serious developers coming to the site. However, there are some decent game developers here but they aren't making games - I'm not sure why. I just explained why they aren't. They are not really serious. They don't want to make the next indie sensation, they just want to make a cute little casual game they can play during their lunch break. Which, this is BYOND so there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that ( people can make whatever they want ), but there really isn't anything good about it either. Its the reason why you don't see many games promoted. If people cared, they'd be getting their games seen on websites outside of BYOND, not making games and allowing them to rot and be forgotten. | |
There's more to it than just having features. BYOND has features for creating custom interfaces but they're terrible. The GUI editor doesn't compare to other modern tools and it doesn't allow for the creation of the kind of interface you'd see in a game. I don't think the Flash client will change a lot because you have to set up a dedicated server that all flash client users connect to. There are still a lot of hoops to jump through so it won't be terribly appealing to serious game developers.
BYOND doesn't need to match other tools feature-for-feature, it just has to be powerful and easy. Currently it's not much of either - it makes easy things *really* easy, but doesn't make difficult things easy. They don't want to make the next indie sensation, they just want to make a cute little casual game they can play during their lunch break. I'm sure that's the case for most people, but there are lots of developers who don't seem to make anything anymore. There are BYOND users that seem like decent programmers, some even have game ideas, but they never make anything. | |
Byond Isn't all about the functions of it(of course that's the main reason people steer clear of it), Ir's also about the community. I haven't really looked at other sites, but I'm sure on other sites You don't get continually abused because people don't like what your making.
Byond doesn't have a welcoming community and isn't a particularly welcoming tool. | |
GreatFisher wrote:
Byond Isn't all about the functions of it(of course that's the main reason people steer clear of it), Ir's also about the community. I haven't really looked at other sites, but I'm sure on other sites You don't get continually abused because people don't like what your making. The community usually only bashes things that don't really belong on the site. GFX, CSS, bases etc. get made fun of and trolled because they're not really relevant. If more blog posts were about games and game development, instead of random off-the-wall crap, you would see better responses from people. It doesn't happen in other communities because the people in other communities are serious about game development and they post relevant blog entries. If you pay attention to most of the blogs that get trolled, it's usually the ones with irrelevant content. When people don't care, but they still leave a comment, it's most likely going to be an inflammatory, off-topic remark. Besides, the community isn't what people should be here for. Too many people treat BYOND like a social networking site where they come, hang out, and make friends. That's not what BYOND was meant for. The issue is that we have too many social networkers with next to no talent, and a little over a handful of developers with potential. It's a recipe for disaster. | |
To add to that: new users should be able to download the BYOND software, run Dream Maker, play with some examples, and see what BYOND is capable of without ever having to deal with the community. BYOND doesn't need a better community before it can become popular. The community holds back existing users from reaching their potential but it doesn't stop new users from using the software.
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Yes, I agree with the idea of packaging BYOND with a few games. It could also knock off that browser crap which makes it come off as desperate adware. Opening your browser after installing or any time you close the splash screen is really annoying.
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