Someday, I'll become a ripper... in Off Topic

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ID:72909
 
Jun 17 2009, 7:40 am
So today I got the urge to make another DBZ game... DBTC is a style of game that doesn't appeal to the masses (turn-based, singleplayer-focused, not flashy, etc.), and I decided I'd like to make a second DBZ game that follows the more popular mold...

It won't happen for quite some time (if ever), because I've got a nice list of projects and jobs ahead of it (including actually upgrading DBTC itself at some point; I wouldn't abandon my baby for this project), but I'm putting it at the end of my List...

The trouble is, I don't want to invest a lot of time into another huge project (which this would quickly become), I don't want to re-use DBTC resources (or even mimic their style, which I'm not sure I can get away from), and I don't want to even try to compete with some of the truly original and amazing DBZ games out there (both released and in development)

So...

I want to become a ripper...lol

I want to grab up some popular source (or maybe as many of them as I can find) and hammer them into a decent game... Sort of show the rippers how to really do it...lol

How would I go about this? Well, a lot of my focus tends towards the artistic/aesthetic side, so a major part of the work would be graphical... Every icon (ripped or otherwise) would have to be edited into a coherent style (I'd dump the most glaring offenders... no icons would remain that were taken from commercial games, and I'd try to weed out any that aren't now more or less in BYOND's "public domain") Too many DBZ games around here are a jumbled, mismatched, hodge-podge of icons from wildly varying sources and styles (and they look like garbage because of it) I'd pick one style that I like the best (and/or can emulate the best) out of the lot and dump or edit everything else to match it...

Along with visuals would come mapping... I see too many games (not just DBZ games, mind you) with terrible mapping jobs... Just plopping turfs down to make stuff that looks like buildings, or having huge expanses of nothing but empty water or grass for the sake of making the map look big, or having layouts that don't make sense, or maps that don't even resemble the places they're supposed to represent are all huge sins in my eyes... I'd have to rectify these common issues in my rip...

And of course, the programming... This one will be tough, but I think I'm up to the challenge... Aside from cleaning it up to my current standards of simplification, universalization, organization, etc., I'd have to gut most of it and rebuild from the scrap...lol But I'd try to retain all of the various commonplace elements that DBZ players on BYOND come to expect...

Of course, for much of the ubiquitous (and ultimately pointless) systems (like "Meditate" or P-bags) I'd try to find some way to make them actually worthwhile and entertaining... Perhaps a great undertaking in itself, but to stay true to the spirit of the project and its roots, I wouldn't want to just tear them all out...

So yeah, someday, I'll become a ripper (unless the "Warning of the Day" hits me because of this post)

Will everyone still love me? lol

Of course, I wouldn't try to pass the game off as original (kind of hard, since it'll likely still scream "rip", plus, y'know, there's now this blog post), and it and/or its hub entry would be very clear about its origins (maybe even with a little sermon about the evils of ripping, unless that might seem too hypocritical)
#1 Jun 17 2009, 8:25 am
I brought this up in chatters once, it'd be fun to take a source a clean it up a bit. Good luck, maybe if I ever get the time I'll do something like this with a different source. Are you planning on releasing the source after your done? Kind of like a big patch to all the rips so atleast there playable.
#2 Jun 17 2009, 8:29 am
Well at least you can program. That's all i have to say.
#3 Jun 17 2009, 8:56 am
You fiend! How could you think about this! Anyways, good luck if you do end up becoming a ripper.
#4 Jun 17 2009, 9:00 am
@ Lord of light:

The main problem with rips (aside from being stolen property) is that they result in a flood of the same game in hundreds of different boxes... Most rippers just slap their name into the code, maybe add some things or tweak some formulas, but ultimately just release a game that's still just a complete clone of another game...

And then there's the fact that even in games that aren't ripped directly from the files of another, you've got dozens of people making copy-cat games with the same commands and systems and whatnot... (hence, you see the same list of verbs in virtually every DBZ game on BYOND, even those that aren't from the same ripped source)

So now, there's all kinds of games that are almost exactly the same, and then even more that might as well be exactly the same...lol

In fact, since the original owners/creators of the oldest ripped sources have almost all moved on or just don't care anymore, the issue of the sources being stolen becomes a non-issue (the only individual who is truly hurt by the theft no longer cares), which essentially makes the "Cookie-Cutter"/"Attack of the Clones" problem the foremost issue against rips...

So, even though releasing a decent replacement source would at least help to make future rips into decent games, it would still lead into a hole of having hundreds of the same game running around with different names...

So no, I probably won't release the source...

Plus, if I do it right, perhaps it'll draw the audience away from the existing rips (which all seem to still consistently get the largest playing numbers) and kill them off/discourage future rips...

@ Gochels:

I'd like to think so! Heck, I know I'm better than the people who originally made/edited most of the popular sources out there...

Plus, I think I'm pretty handy at pushing pixels, too...
#5 Jun 17 2009, 9:16 am
This is a really bad idea and my opinion of you would lower considerably, though you probably couldn't care less.

How about you take the standard DBZ model and turn it into some kind of "Wizard Wars" game? Nothing quite as awesome as a few kung fu wizards shooting fireballs at each other.
#6 Jun 17 2009, 9:20 am
Taking a rip and then fixing it up to something quality would be like... I dunno... imagine I just used a good analogy. Point in case, it'd be so much easier to work with a fresh slate than that messy stuff.
#7 Jun 17 2009, 9:22 am
Whatever happened to "Just Say "Buu" To Rips"?

Good luck anyway, hopefully it will turn out okay.
#8 Jun 17 2009, 9:24 am (Edited on Jun 17 2009, 9:32 am)
@ SuperAntx:

Just exactly why do you think it's a bad idea, though? Especially one bad enough to lower your opinion of me?

@ Zaole:

The challenge of taking garbage and turning it into art is actually part of the fun... Plus, no matter how bad the original source is, it'd still be less work to wrestle it into submission than to start completely from scratch when the end result aims to include the same basic elements and gameplay...

Plus, it would hopefully send the message to would-be rippers that *this* is how you do it... Don't bother unless you can do the same...

@ C_Dawg_S:

In my eyes, I see a very distinct difference between this sort of project and the general rip... Like I said in my previous reply, the main problem with rips is that they're all the same game (most with literally no changes whatsoever past replacing the game owner's name with a new one) They flood BYOND with hundreds (thousands?) of carbon-copies of the same junky game...

This would be going leaps and bounds beyond that, by actually radically improving the source into a decent game...

And again, it would also be completely honest about its origins... There wouldn't be any of those "I made this gaem myself!" lies that usually accompany rips...
#9 Jun 17 2009, 9:30 am
A competent game arising from a rip would only encourage people to steal icons and rip source codes in hopes of emulating your success.

It's also hypocritical to say people shouldn't rip source codes then turning around and doing it yourself.
#10 Jun 17 2009, 9:39 am
SuperAntx wrote:
A competent game arising from a rip would only encourage people to steal icons and rip source codes in hopes of emulating your success.

I think it would do the opposite... It would show people that they'd need to put in the same level of effort and quality, and if they can't or won't, they shouldn't even bother...

It's also hypocritical to say people shouldn't rip source codes then turning around and doing it yourself.

This is my only reservation (I hinted at it near the bottom of my blog post), but like I've mentioned below (twice now?) I don't see this as being in the same league as the usual rip... Why?

1) Actual work would be done to fix the source into a decent game
2) I'd make no claims to have done all of the work myself (in fact, I'd go to great lengths to make it well known that I didn't do all of the work myself)

Those two points alone basically address everything that is wrong with rips (at least, rips from the sources that are old and been around the BYOND block a few hundred times) so I'd say that such a project could hardly even still be classified as a "rip" in the same sense as the rest...
#11 Jun 17 2009, 9:43 am
It just seems like more trouble that it's worth and no matter how you look at it, the bottom line is you're setting a bad example.
#12 Jun 17 2009, 9:55 am
SuperAntx wrote:
It just seems like more trouble that it's worth and no matter how you look at it, the bottom line is you're setting a bad example.

Again, I disagree... I think it would be setting a good example...

Ripping will never cease on BYOND... The sources that are out there already will forever continue to float around and fall into the hands of would-be rippers and naive new developers will keep giving their sources to people they shouldn't have trusted (or, just handing them out willingly when they get tired of working on them and/or BYOND)...

We will forever have to deal with dozens of "new" games added to the hub every day that are nothing but ever-so-slightly altered versions of those "public domain" sources...

The cat was let out of the bag, and can never be put back in...lol

So, basically, at this point, releasing another version of one or more of those sources, even one that's (hopefully) better than all of the rest, can really do no more to encourage the trend... Simply because it needs no encouragement to continue... It will keep going regardless...

Seeing a good game rise from a ripped source won't make more people want to try it than the people who already are... No matter what I do, there will always be about the same number of "developers" who take this route...

In fact, the only way to keep it in check is by shifting the minds of the players away from the rips... You can only kill the fire by removing its fuel... And, incidentally, that was my intent with the anti-rip "campaign" I launched back in the early days of the Anime Guild... It wasn't really to keep "developers" from making rips (though that was an aspect), it's more geared towards opening the eyes of the players to turn them away from playing the rips...

So in the end, taking a well-known, and often used source, and transforming it into a good game can only (hopefully) accomplish two things:

1) Steal players away from the crappy rips
2) Show potential rippers that they need to step their game up
#13 Jun 17 2009, 10:26 am
I guess that ok, There are Alot of Rips out there that put no change in what so ever.

So i Guess Your Game will Probably Be better then those Rips with no "Unique" style.

But you should think about it before you do it. =)

Best of luck.
#14 Jun 17 2009, 10:26 am
You can't fight fire with fire. A popular rip will only create more rips.

If you really, really need those poorly made maps, mismatched tile sets, and the buggy code then go ahead and start ripping off anime games because there's no stopping you if your mind is already made. I'm not the one who will be wading though dung for the next few weeks.

There is no such thing as a "good ripped source" because there are no good source codes to begin with. The only way for one to be good is if you made one from scratch and avoided making all the runtime errors. However, it wouldn't be a rip if that were the case, now would it?

On a closing note, keep in mind by taking a ripped source and scribbling your name all over it, you're stamping out some kid's net dream and claiming it as your own. Also, having the former leader of an "anti-rip campaign" working on a rip really brings the quality of this community into question.

I'm unsubscribing. I hope you make the right choice.
#15 Jun 17 2009, 10:42 am
SuperAntx wrote:
On a closing note, keep in mind by taking a ripped source and scribbling your name all over it, you're stamping out some kid's net dream and claiming it as your own.

He's not running up to some kid, punching him in the face, and stealing his source code. He's taking some willingly-released code such as the traditional Dragonball Zeta and turning it into something better, in the hopes of setting an example. Whether or not I agree with the effectiveness, please understand that he's not trying to find the easy way out or make himself look good by "scribbling his name all over it".
#16 Jun 17 2009, 11:08 am
Rippers won't learn anything from what you plan. If they can get tons of players by doing as little work as possible, they will continue doing what they've always been doing. Seeing a rip with significant changes won't inspire them to create a rip of their own with significant changes.

Though I do think that is was a good idea, it probably won't do anything.
#17 Jun 17 2009, 11:31 am
Chances are, you won't steal any players away because other rips offer perks to asskissers, I imagine yours won't be quite the same. For pure art's sake, however, I think it would be great to turn a pile of filth into something much greater. I don't think it would really have any impact on the community, besides stir up the anti-rip drama queens, but I think you've already realized the latter. :) Good luck.
#18 Jun 17 2009, 11:53 am
As long as youve been here, you still think doing this kind of thing will set an example? These kids would sooner steal the art from your game and put it into thiers than be encouraged to make better games. Thats the truth, whether you agree or not.

Its a huge waste of time that will no doubt end in vain. your not helping anyone, youd be better of either working on a current nonrip fangame, or making one on your own.
#19 Jun 17 2009, 12:23 pm
What a neat experiment.
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