Self-Generating Content in Design Philosophy

ID:638457
 
Apr 7 2012, 2:08 am
For a while now, I have been thinking that games are boring and they lack versatility and the better the graphics nowadays get, the less real content you can find. Since time is limited and scarce, how to use it to it's maximum potential? - It has been my quest. The answer is quite simple, just create a game, which generates their own content, as simple as that. It isn't simply limited to customizing items or the character, but the whole world: skills, abilities, races, classes, etc.

I am sure every single one of you has encountered the moment when they thought: "Is that all there is to this?" I have been wondering about this for years and developed various prototypes on how to create customized skills, which indeed can be said to be unique, with some results, might be an understatement. Then I discovered Minecraft, well yes, the ever-generating world, the further the player walks out into the world, the more it is generated, providing them countless hours of entertainment and adventure.

The whole idea is to make systems, which allow the world to be ever-expanding in terms of game play and content, of course the graphical display should be important to some extent. Crafting new items, giving them enchantments and so forth, discovering new abilities to use, forming organizations, building the world, even trying to become a god, if you will - Isn't all that what every single player really dreams of? The power of creation and creativity, linking several parts of the puzzle into one and getting various results in return, the fun of discovering new things.

Of course, I am being Captain Obvious here, but isn't it time to put those kind of ideas into real use, instead of using simple systems, which do not really provide you with the entertainment and popularity you are looking for? The whole game is not only meant for entertainment, but also as some sort of educational value, since the world is never chaotic, they have patterns in them, which in return let's the player develop their creative and logical thinking abilities.

This is my 5 cents...
#1 Apr 7 2012, 7:01 am
The best idea I could think of (In about 2.5 seconds) was items created with stats upon spawning , You can easily make it so If you add in stronger monsters you wouldn't even have to touch the items for their stats to increase when dropped by that monster/enemy , simply add in item overlays and such for a type of items , an aura maybe? Give the players the option of dissembling those said items and recreating there own , the possibility's could be limitless.
#2 Apr 7 2012, 3:09 pm
I'm not sure how randomly generating content relates to fostering creativity in players. In Minecraft it doesn't matter that the landscape is initially random, it encourages creativity because it gives players the ability to manipulate the landscape. People build things because it's a building game. Encouraging creativity is a good thing, I just don't see the connection.

There are drawbacks to randomly generated content. It is often less interesting than hand-made content. This is probably why it's used to create filler. For example, in Diablo 2 most of the maps and items were random but that content wasn't important. The maps just had to be different. The important parts of the game (bosses, character classes, skills, and the best items) were not randomly generated.
#3 Apr 13 2012, 7:52 am
Randomly generated content isn't necessarily less interesting, since it can create surprising things, of course the generated content follows a certain logic of how things work and all, however it gives you variety. I also find that being able to combine certain aspects with each other for example the users abilities into a skill or a new ability based on the users decision would give the player enough to play around with, opposed to the traditional learn-and-use-same-skill-9000-over-and-over-in-one-single-wa y. In real-life you do not use your skills in one single way, based on how you use them, they can be effective or not. Giving the player the feeling of "control" and "fulfillment" can have a very powerful effect on how much success you can taste. From the psychological perspective it would be the feeling of success. Also the feeling of endless possibilities and combinations gives the game depth.
#4 Apr 13 2012, 1:38 pm
Randomly generated content isn't necessarily less interesting, since it can create surprising things, of course the generated content follows a certain logic of how things work and all, however it gives you variety

Surprises aren't always interesting and variety isn't always good.

In an RPG my character might have a 3% chance to get a critical hit. Critical hits are surprising, but not interesting because I knew that a critical hit was a possibility. It's the rules (the fact that I can get critical hits) that is interesting and their depth that is good. It's hard to keep random content interesting but harder for it to be boring, which is why it's often used for filler. For example, you create random maps so the maps aren't boring, but you introduce a new enemy in each level. It's the new enemies that make things interesting, the random maps are used because the map is largely irrelevant - you just need something that doesn't bore the player.

What I had in mind when I made my previous comment was bonuses on equipment in an RPG. If you give equipment random bonuses like this:

armor.strength = rand(1, 10)
armor.speed = rand(1, 10)
armor.mind = rand(1, 10)
armor.will_power = rand(1, 10)

Then it's not interesting, people are just hoping to get an item with good random bonuses. If you create some well-defined pieces of armor people have to hunt around for the right combination of gear to get the stats they're looking for. They're not just hoping that the random number generator will give them something good.

I also find that being able to combine certain aspects with each other for example the users abilities into a skill or a new ability based on the users decision would give the player enough to play around with

I'm not sure what that has to do with randomly generated content.
#5 Apr 13 2012, 1:58 pm
It would appear that you are taking it the wrong way. I don't simply mean giving random bonuses. Besides I am not only focusing on randomly generated content either, but the variety of customization. While yes, randomly generated content is very useful when used as a filler, I agree on that, it still holds a great importance in how things can play out. Like I previously mentioned the randomization should also follow certain principles, pillars to hold onto.

Random bonuses to items, they wouldn't simply be limited to basic stat boosts, but also a variety of other ones, this also includes curses. However it isn't what I meant in the first place.

I might have started off the explanation in the wrong way, but the whole thing is focused on customization and on randomness. Like you mentioned, hand-made items and equipment and other content sound and usually look more appealing, which is why giving the player free hands in the item design would be a great place to start as well. Allowing them to select shapes and forms plus materials for their creations gives them a greater feeling of freedom.

If you believe that I have shallow generation systems in mind then you are in the wrong.
#6 Apr 13 2012, 3:27 pm
It sounds like you're just talking about providing lots of options. It sounds great, but each option has to have value. If they don't, it's meaningless. If you let a player pick RGB values to color their armor they have 16,777,216 options. Providing three unique icons (that they can't color) gives them less options and less freedom but might be more interesting.

If you give players lots of options and freedom there's potential for them to have fun, but it's not guaranteed it'll work out that way. Giving them freedom means you're not closing doors, so you didn't close the door that leads to fun. But, since so many doors are open, it's harder for players to find the right way to enjoy the game. The structure you give the game increases the chance they'll have fun, but that's the hard part to create.
#7 Apr 14 2012, 3:52 am
As you say, the idea is to give the more and more options in the way they can build up their character and the world itself, not only is the coloring part of the whole freedom, but also the ability to use their powers in the way they want, not how they were meant to be used.

While yes, the more options the harder it is to make decisions, I'm willing to take that risk since I find depth more important, I dislike limiting the player. I also find that, there should be a reward for players who have a head on their shoulders, so those who are more creative in the way they use things, they can possibly gain more than those who don't.

An example could be the use of magic. Most are used to the concept that you fire off balls of fire and at a greater level you can shoot larger fire balls, however I find it quite wrong and limited, I wouldn't find it fun at all. So what is it I would do?

I'd give the user the ability to manipulate and generate fire with magic instead. The created fire or any other element would have their own properties how it reacts to certain things like, other elements and environment and of course the players. The fire would also be controllable to a degree, one of the methods would be that the fire reads your direction you are facing and moves that way or you give it a programmed path to follow, or a certain target to home to, there are plenty of options.

Not only is this system limited to elemental magic, but also effects, which buff or debuff the target, so you could create magic, which is like a curse or a blessing at various strengths, based on your character's ability in terms of magic capacity and control. And even that isn't the limitation to it, there are plenty of powers, which you can control by this method and each is governed by a law, a set of conditions by which they work by.

I am merely working based on my own intuitive thinking, playing out various scenarios, how things can work out.
#8 Apr 22 2012, 6:44 pm
What you're thinking of is(Probably) Procedurally Generated content, here is your bible - http://pcg.wikidot.com/
#9 Apr 24 2012, 6:17 am
In response to Taitz (#7)
Taitz wrote:
As you say, the idea is to give the more and more options in the way they can build up their character and the world itself, not only is the coloring part of the whole freedom, but also the ability to use their powers in the way they want, not how they were meant to be used.

While yes, the more options the harder it is to make decisions, I'm willing to take that risk since I find depth more important, I dislike limiting the player. I also find that, there should be a reward for players who have a head on their shoulders, so those who are more creative in the way they use things, they can possibly gain more than those who don't.

An example could be the use of magic. Most are used to the concept that you fire off balls of fire and at a greater level you can shoot larger fire balls, however I find it quite wrong and limited, I wouldn't find it fun at all. So what is it I would do?

I'd give the user the ability to manipulate and generate fire with magic instead. The created fire or any other element would have their own properties how it reacts to certain things like, other elements and environment and of course the players. The fire would also be controllable to a degree, one of the methods would be that the fire reads your direction you are facing and moves that way or you give it a programmed path to follow, or a certain target to home to, there are plenty of options.

Not only is this system limited to elemental magic, but also effects, which buff or debuff the target, so you could create magic, which is like a curse or a blessing at various strengths, based on your character's ability in terms of magic capacity and control. And even that isn't the limitation to it, there are plenty of powers, which you can control by this method and each is governed by a law, a set of conditions by which they work by.

I am merely working based on my own intuitive thinking, playing out various scenarios, how things can work out.

Taitz, I just had to make a couple of quick points here about what you said. I think you've missed a couple of fundamentals in game design.

It's easy to think that players won't like being limited but like Forum_Account said, 3 unique icons is more interesting than giving the player full colour control. Limitations is the primary driving force for games. Unlike regular programs where the philosophy is to make the user's life easier, games are the polar opposite. They are about providing the player with a set of problems and providing pathways to solving them. Going back to the icon choices, if you have 3 unique icons but can unlock a 4th type through problem solving, it makes the 4th type more valuable to a player than giving them "16,777,216 options" out of the box.

The second point I wanted to make here was to do with how you said you prefer depth. That is completely understandable but you appear to think options are directly proportional to depth. Far from it, depth is another ball game entirely. I could write a system tonight to generate 100,000 items all with different statistics and it would be the most dull, unoriginal piece of garbage... No, depth is gained from a substantial amount of significant variation. The wording there is very specific. Diablo II is a prime example of this, virtually all items have random statistics exactly like my bland concept but there is also a random chance of me finding items that will turn my items into something "significantly different". They're called Runes. These do not just simply add modifiers like poison damage or lightning resistance. No, when added in the correct order to specific weapons you can turn something that was weak into one of the most powerful weapons in the game. This is what I mean by significantly different. All of a sudden your Phase Blade becomes "Death" and gains many high end modifiers.

So to conclude that, depth is gained from a substantial amount of significant variation and part of being a game designer is knowing when you're adding depth or just adding layers of complexity.
#10 May 26 2012, 5:24 pm
Limiting the players' options is not the same as providing challenges.

A challenge can exponentially create options depending on the options the player has to solve it and whether or not those options can be permutated.

See Dwarf Fortress or any RTS.

It sounds to me he's talking about procedural content and just doesn't really how/why to use it.
#11 May 27 2012, 3:51 pm
Well, in the game i'm working on and is in open beta right now, i'm working at adding player-generated content in terms of quests that focus on PvP and the like, and player-spawned NPC Enemies that will appear and attack other places in the world.

I know where you're going with this topic, and yes, it's important for a game to be able to expand itself without requiring updates and the ilke, if that's what you mean. Game-generating content and player-generating content, those are both good things to have, but only if you implement them properly.

Think about how it'd work in your game.
#12 Jun 5 2012, 10:53 pm
I am also working on a game using this concept, I am sure people don't really understand what I am trying to say so, Theogony(check the forums for screenshots aswell) is the example what I am talking about. Haven't worked on it much yet, but everything is fine for now, taking my time on it though.
#13 Jun 5 2012, 11:01 pm
Taitz knows what he is doing, you people didn't pay much attention to what he said now did you...

He wants to give the players the power to do what they want with their powers in a never ending world.

When he said about random he meant stuff like self generated map.
When he said about depth he meant giving players the possibility to control their powers in more then one ways depending on their creativity.

So like Zecronious said that in Diablo II the runes wore changing the power of your weapon and making it devastating, so is controlling your power in the best way for a certain situation devastating.

You people should pay more attention to what he said.
#14 Jun 6 2012, 12:00 pm
I'm sorry but "random" and "do what you want with your powers" aren't exactly self explanatory concepts in the world of programming.
#15 Jun 6 2012, 12:16 pm
In response to MaikXtrem (#13)
MaikXtrem wrote:
He wants to give the players the power to do what they want with their powers in a never ending world.

The problem is that there was no connection made between those two concepts. Having a randomly generated map doesn't automatically give players the power to do what they want.
#16 Jun 6 2012, 12:17 pm
The problem with what yer saying is that you never fully read what I or he wrote.
#17 Jun 6 2012, 12:18 pm
In response to Taitz (#16)
Taitz wrote:
The problem with what yer saying is that you never fully read what I or he wrote.

Maybe I did and I just wasn't able to understand it. Can you explain it any differently?