My thoughts on this update +minirant in Off Topic

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ID:122493
 
Jan 1 2012, 11:21 pm
Keywords: end, the
Unless it beats me to the punch and happens in the midst of me writing this post, or no one cares about my opinions any more, either one sucks.

So as I'm sure everyone is aware, there's going to be a new website update coming in the very to near future. The notes given in the linked post were quite informative, and although I haven't read the comments, I do assume that the same old people are arguing with the same other old people about how this move will "doom BYOND forever" and "make everyone leave" or something to that effect. Undoubtedly with the normal retorts blah blah - let's skip all that.

// BEGIN MINI-RANT Skip.

There's one consistent feeling I do get when I read the naysayers points of view on this update though. For some reason, I can't shake the feeling that they seem to think the hub is an entitlement of some kind. And this perplexes me: How can anyone possibly think they are entitled to the hub, or entitled to use it?

When I joined BYOND, I read that the software was 100% free. Almost nine years later, I find that the software is still 100% free. And I'm thankful for this.

I'm also thankful for the many years I was allowed to abuse the hub via making and deleting as many as I saw fit for whatever random or pointless task I was doing. And now, I'll happily pay for that privilege to continue to do so. And probably, if I'm in an extremely good mood, or someone cracks a good joke, I might be nice enough to pay for others for the privilege to do so as well.

If my subtle point was lost. If you think the hub is an entitlement, you are wrong. It is a privilege. That's all there is to it. Nothing more, nothing less. You can argue until you're blue in the face, it doesn't change this fact. You are not entitled to it. If you were, we wouldn't have the ability to make them go away. You think you're entitled to a hub but not for the site search? It's the same website. They restricted searches for a reason, they're restricting hubs for a reason. They are a privilege, one non-members just lost at that. Live with it.

[Edit] One more thing! The thing I found most funny was that on Tom's announcement, the Yay/Nay thing (which non-members can't vote on IIRC) has 24+ 1-. Seems this "BYOND's doomsday" is pretty popular amongst the subscribers. ;)

// END MINIRANT

I like the forum driven system. When Tom mentioned it way back when, I imagined something much, much different (possibly). But I'm also quite excited about this. I will admit, not to crash hot on losing the age old forum style. Sticky's and the like would have worked fine above an <hr> above the rest of the forum posts. But hey, I've always loved the BYOND forums. And this drives me even more to keep working on my own shoddy PHP knock-off.

But like everyone else, I'll get over it. I can forgive it for the site-pager message update. Let's face it, not all that crash hot right now. But that looks pretty damn snazzy. I'll pay for that.

Game forums for hubs with a bug-tracker and feature-tracker. Hell yes. I'll pay for that.

The best response thing would have been useful six years ago. When I was young and eager to help, yet smart enough to just manage to not screw up enough to warrant community assault. What can I say, as you get older, you stop caring about your status and reputation amongst complete strangers. But let the me's of the next generation take a crack at it. Go get 'em tigers.

Contests and Events is interesting, and I suspect will probably need to have several moderators keeping an eye on it. I can foresee people abusing this feature with stupid and childish pranks. (Yo! Party at Cindy's house! Drunk white women for everybody!)

The flash client was the big one I was looking out for. Sadly it didn't quite meet my giddy child-like expectations. At most, I find this to be a short-term shame. I'll get over it relatively quickly. And probably adapt to it's limitations and flexibility at much the same pace. I'm an evolving programmer?

I think that about sums it up. The only bummer is the forum layout. But even then, if you want to change a community, visually changing the place they all go to complain about the community (or getting rid of it and changing the old place which is also subsequently the next best place) is a pretty good start. (It's a psychology thing.)
#1 Jan 1 2012, 11:52 pm
I thought it was mostly positive comments regarding the site change? Though I guess I didn't really read through that many comments. I myself think it's a good idea to have members being the ones to create hubs (I'd be one of many to lose the hubs). I'm not a huge fan of the all forum site, or forums in general, but I'll wait and see how it feels. It does open some things up like contests and bug trackers. Still looking forward to flash integration though.

PS: This is unrelated, but your display picture is kind of terrible, I'd ad-block it, but I have ad-block turned off on BYOND.
#2 Jan 2 2012, 12:35 am
Megablaze wrote:
I thought it was mostly positive comments regarding the site change? Though I guess I didn't really read through that many comments.

I didn't read the comments, but I've seen more than my fair share of people complaining. And this stuff has been going on for years anyway, it's probably not the first time I've addressed it.

I myself think it's a good idea to have members being the ones to create hubs (I'd be one of many to lose the hubs).

I also think this is a good idea. First and foremost it weeds out all the crap. Truth be told, if ever there was a time to prune hubs, now is probably it. They already have things in place to track inactive hubs, they should really scrap them all. New site, new image, new beginning?

I'm not a huge fan of the all forum site, or forums in general, but I'll wait and see how it feels.

I don't think the site itself is a giant forum. It very well could be, but I doubt it. What they've essentially done is something I've been experimenting with myself since Tom mentioned it way back, and it's basically designing a website with the primary database being designed as a forum.

After all, all blog posts, news posts, comments, hub comments, etc etc are just text attached to a key and a date, no different to a forum post, so why bother using a different database to store it all separately, when you can stuff it all in a hidden forum (making it much easier to moderate).

Think of it this way: You install a PHPBB forum, then set up two hidden forums that only you can see. One is called "News" and the other is called "Blog". You then write a script to read the database and pull posts from either of those specific forums and display them on your front page. The content management system is there, you just have to plug it out of the database. But that's not what phpBB forums where specifically designed to do. Tom's new forums however, ARE designed to do this, so it'll have a much more majestic flow to it (I never really liked websites that separate the forums like they do when they use things like phpBB).


It does open some things up like contests and bug trackers. Still looking forward to flash integration though.

Flash isn't just integration into the BYOND website. You'll be able to take the client and embed it into your own website. THAT is what I'm looking forward to. BYOND can do so many things so easily, and being able to put them on a website is worth the cost of running a server to make it happen. BYOND isn't all that resource intensive if you're not doing very many big things.

PS: This is unrelated, but your display picture is kind of terrible, I'd ad-block it, but I have ad-block turned off on BYOND.

The irony of your name and my state of mind in that photo are hilarious to me. ;)
#3 Jan 2 2012, 1:11 am
Tiberath wrote:
I don't think the site itself is a giant forum. It very well could be, but I doubt it. What they've essentially done is something I've been experimenting with myself since Tom mentioned it way back, and it's basically designing a website with the primary database being designed as a forum.

After all, all blog posts, news posts, comments, hub comments, etc etc are just text attached to a key and a date, no different to a forum post, so why bother using a different database to store it all separately, when you can stuff it all in a hidden forum (making it much easier to moderate).

Think of it this way: You install a PHPBB forum, then set up two hidden forums that only you can see. One is called "News" and the other is called "Blog". You then write a script to read the database and pull posts from either of those specific forums and display them on your front page. The content management system is there, you just have to plug it out of the database. But that's not what phpBB forums where specifically designed to do. Tom's new forums however, ARE designed to do this, so it'll have a much more majestic flow to it (I never really liked websites that separate the forums like they do when they use things like phpBB).

I didn't mean it was a single giant forum, I understand what you mean, but I dislike the idea of it. Like I said, I dislike forums in general, but having a separate forum on a blog with comments, etc, is even worse, so I might like the turn out.

Flash isn't just integration into the BYOND website. You'll be able to take the client and embed it into your own website. THAT is what I'm looking forward to. BYOND can do so many things so easily, and being able to put them on a website is worth the cost of running a server to make it happen. BYOND isn't all that resource intensive if you're not doing very many big things.

Also understood the intention of flash, and the plan of being able to embed a game onto other sites, which is what I'm looking forward to. I'm actually fine with the idea of removing interfaces, I'm assuming the addition of interfaces won't work that well anyways, so having just the map is fine by me.

The irony of your name and my state of mind in that photo are hilarious to me. ;)

Heh.
#4 Jan 2 2012, 1:20 am
Megablaze wrote:
Also understood the intention of flash, and the plan of being able to embed a game onto other sites, which is what I'm looking forward to.

I'm more interested in the manipulation of the page around which the client is embedded. That is what gets me going. If I can manipulate the page around the flash client, my soul task in life has been determined.

I'm actually fine with the idea of removing interfaces, I'm assuming the addition of interfaces won't work that well anyways, so having just the map is fine by me.

Not for me. I find it easier to make a card game using just the interface rather than with on screen objects. Hell, most of the games I come up with never need a map...

Heh.

Your fault for using a funny name on a stoners blog.
#5 Jan 2 2012, 8:52 am
Actually, mostly positive comments coming out of it. A little tit for tat over the impacts on our rips crowd but even they are silent. Too much reading for them perhaps. ;)
#6 Jan 4 2012, 8:11 am
Completely off topic; do you find cannabis helps muscle tension?

#7 Jan 4 2012, 9:01 am
Tiberath wrote:
But like everyone else, I'll get over it. I can forgive it for the site-pager message update. Let's face it, not all that crash hot right now. But that looks pretty damn snazzy. I'll pay for that.

Game forums for hubs with a bug-tracker and feature-tracker. Hell yes. I'll pay for that.

If you didn't use these features as they're provided by BYOND, you'd use something like MSN Messenger instead of the pager and you'd use a free web-based forum (or whatever things like Google Code provide) instead of the bug and feature trackers. In both cases the non-BYOND features are way better. You can't justify the cost of a membership by claiming that the features are good and worth the money. They just aren't. It doesn't even make sense to try - the freely available features are better than the paid-for ones.

The only way to look at it that makes sense is that buying a membership is giving a donation to BYOND and the features you receive are a bonus for your generosity, but were never meant to be worth the money you had given. It's like donating $50 to a political campaign and getting a coffee mug in return - it's not about the mug, it's about the people you're supporting. If you try to claim that this is about the mug, I'm afraid the BYOND staff will get the idea that people are happy with insignificant features (like a bug tracker) and we'll stop seeing significant improvements.
#8 Jan 4 2012, 2:39 pm
@forum_account: I had a very long post replying to you, but I've changed my mind, it's not worth my time of day trying to argue with you.

Because no matter what, the argument will always be "there is free alternatives!" And I always think: I don't care. No matter how good and available free alternatives are, they're not here on this site, and while I have knowledge and access to server computers and can pretty much make any web-service I'd need (unlike the majority of BYOND who has none of these), I'll still use the provided BYOND ones, 'cause they tie into the software nicely. That's all.

If you can't justify spending $24.00 on BYOND, that's your business. You come from a capitalist country right? The answer is simple: Get a better job. My job? It sucks. It pays 40k a year and isn't worth it for the amount of dedication and overtime I put into it. I can still justify the $24.00, then again, I don't demand perfection at all times.
#9 Jan 4 2012, 2:53 pm
I don't think we're in disagreement at all. I think you expected to disagree with me and came out with your guns blazing, but don't understand what I said.

I didn't say that free alternatives mean you shouldn't support BYOND. What I am saying is that the presence of free alternatives suggests that people aren't buying memberships to get the features. You can't justify the cost based on the features you get but you're not supposed to. The features are more of a "thanks for donating" type of thing than an incentive to purchase.
#10 Jan 4 2012, 3:08 pm
I dunno, I think the hub is pretty darn useful and worth the proposed fee. Trying to get outside users to play your game is a pain in the ass.
#11 Jan 4 2012, 3:33 pm
Tom wrote:
I dunno, I think the hub is pretty darn useful and worth the proposed fee. Trying to get outside users to play your game is a pain in the ass.

I'd have an easier time getting outside players to play my game with a hub, thanks to this. ;)

Which reminds me: (EOP)

@Forum Account: Quite possible. But the hub is still free at the moment. Your theory (provided I get you) doesn't count until after the changes take effect and we see the general populations reaction.

If what I understand you saying is: People will choose free alternatives rather than pay for the forums/trackers/hub, meaning BYOND will ultimately lose money. Therefore, BYOND should up it's game and offer these features better, offer more of them, and (now my mind takes over, 'cause it works too hard) possibly do as Google does and allow people to pick and choose the features they want associated with their account to adjust the cost of their membership.

However: If they all piss off to other websites, we've suddenly got [x] amount of websites all eventually mentioning/linking BYOND in some way, which should hopefully drive more users to BYOND. Theoretically, more users should mean more memberships simply because people like me will always find a reason to waste some cash.

--

Just in case I haven't released this before.
// Read hub, tiberath (sometime in early 2010 - late 2011).
<?
    echo "<pre>" . print_r(parse_hub($_GET['h'], $_GET['m'], $_GET['a']), TRUE) . "</pre>";

    function parse_hub($hub, $member=FALSE, $additional = null) {
        $url = "http://www.byond.com/" . ($member ? "members" : "hub") . "/" . $hub . ";format=text" . ($additional ? ";" . $additional : null);

        $page = get_headers($url, TRUE);
        if(strpos($page["Content-Type"], "text/plain") === false) return false;

        $return_array   = array();  // Array returned. Duh.
        $page = file_get_contents($url);
        $page = explode(chr(10), htmlentities($page, ENT_NOQUOTES));
        $heading    = "";
        $subheading = "";

        foreach($page as $p) {
            if(!strpos($p, "=")) {
                if(strpos($p, "/")) {
                    $p = explode("/", $p);
                    $heading = trim($p[0]);
                    $subheading = trim($p[1]);
                } else {
                    $heading = trim($p);
                    unset($subheading);
                }

            } else {
                $start = strpos($p, "=");
                $a = substr($p, 0, $start);
                $b = substr($p, $start + 2);

                if(strpos($b, "list") === 0) {
                    $b = str_replace("\"", "", substr($b, 5, strlen($b) - 7));
                    $b = explode(",", $b);
                    if(!$b[0]) $b = null;
                }

                if($subheading) {
                    $return_array[$heading][$subheading][trim($a)] = ((strpos($b, "\"") === 0) ? substr($b, 1, strlen($b) - 3) : $b);
                } else {
                    $return_array[$heading][trim($a)] = ((strpos($b, "\"") === 0) ? substr($b, 1, strlen($b) - 3) : $b);
                }
            }
        }

        return $return_array;
    }
?>
#12 Jan 4 2012, 8:44 pm
I've been paying for two BYOND accounts for years and I just let one go and the other is set to expire pretty soon so naturally, I've been thinking about what I should do.

What made the most sense (lightly speaking) was to not pay for a hub until I had something worthy of putting on there. I then wondered if other people would have similar approaches and that seemed concerning to me.

I think many would-be developers buy the membership early on (regardless of game progress) because it provides a needed outlet for venting and sharing excitement and progress to an understanding and appreciative audience. We're effectively paying for the audience.

If that major draw goes away (even if replaced in part by the forums), then people may not have the proper incentive to purchase memberships before they get a game near a publishable state.

If my understanding and theory is correct, many people will come and toil for long periods of time without ever needing the membership because they never had anything worthy of publishing outside of a forum post.

I must of missed this but, what happens to old games/hubs where the owners are long gone?
#13 Jan 4 2012, 10:16 pm
Tentatively, hubs will persist fine without Membership, but will require Membership to edit. I'm still mulling on some details though.

I think that the new system will actually help advertise games better than the current front-page. The idea is that posts made by the hub owner go to the new "front page" (the forum) in a special games section, so people interested in BYOND developments simply need to check this section (as they used to check the front page).
#14 Jan 4 2012, 11:48 pm
Tsfreaks wrote:
I've been paying for two BYOND accounts for years and I just let one go and the other is set to expire pretty soon so naturally, I've been thinking about what I should do.

Likewise, my membership is set to expire soon, and I've been giving it some thought as well, since at this moment the need for the hub isn't so important for me.

What made the most sense (lightly speaking) was to not pay for a hub until I had something worthy of putting on there. I then wondered if other people would have similar approaches and that seemed concerning to me.

Can't say my mind went in this direction, but your concern is notable. However, because prices are still the same, it's safe to assume that because of an impending price rise, people might divert funds towards BYOND for a bit of a saving, perhaps even purchasing a couple of years in advance.

I'm gunning that's what's going down, and the additional short-term income should hopefully cover the impending sales drops.

I think many would-be developers buy the membership early on (regardless of game progress) because it provides a needed outlet for venting and sharing excitement and progress to an understanding and appreciative audience. We're effectively paying for the audience.

You are exactly correct. I love my blog, and have catalogued the previous five - seven years of my life on here. And part of me is sad to see it go, but this brings out in me what BYOND is hoping to bring out in people: The motivation required to move off-site. For me it's writing decent enough blog software and using it. For others, it's marketing and detailing their BYOND game.

In the latter example, this advertises BYOND and should hopefully draw more users into the website. This is a good thing for reasons below.

If that major draw goes away (even if replaced in part by the forums), then people may not have the proper incentive to purchase memberships before they get a game near a publishable state.

I highly doubt this is unintended. In fact, it sounds exactly what BYOND needs. In the opening stages of the update, we wont start to see the difference, but as time goes on, you'll see that the currently barely existent baseline for people to start bragging about their projects will evolve beyond a who and say verb.

Essentially, this scheme helps drive the quality of games up, while at the same time attempting to drive more traffic onto the website with free external advertising.

If my understanding and theory is correct, many people will come and toil for long periods of time without ever needing the membership because they never had anything worthy of publishing outside of a forum post.

This should hopefully be covered by an initial burst of income by people trying to avoid the price rise.

It essentially goes like this:

Step 1: Inform people of a pending price rise, increasing revenue taking advantage of people buying memberships to save money.

Step 2: Increase the price of membership and disable the single biggest burden AND saviour of BYOND, the hub, to everyone except paying users. Income will probably drop off (but should be reasonably steady) but any losses should be covered by the above.

Step 3: Users with a more polished game (one worth actually reading about) go off-site and start advertising their new game. Probably at the same time they'll purchase a membership, make a hub, thus increasing the overall quality of the games.

Step 4: Draw in more users with the increased quality of games who then start making one themselves.

Step 5: IF decent_income DROP site_ads ELSE goto Step 1.

That's how I've come to understand the plan, anyway. I could be way off base and something far bigger or far smaller is at work.

I must of missed this but, what happens to old games/hubs where the owners are long gone?

They stay the same. If the user wishes to update the hub they'll need to buy a membership (though I imagine deleting is still available to non-members). Otherwise it stays exactly how it is. Which is the same as it would anyway. Untouched.
#15 Jan 5 2012, 4:27 am
Honestly don't think this is a personal attack at you Tiberath, I just think you've used a terrible wordset here. Calling these tools on BYOND a Privilege is just the same as calling me being a user of them a Privilege for Tom. No I don't expect anything of BYOND, but that doesn't mean I won't leave if certain things aren't achieved. Of course I'm just one person, you'll say, just leave, you'll say. But I don't want to leave, which is why I'll stay and fight for the whole hub being membership only getting revoked as hard as I can. It's not as if me arguing is going to make a difference anyway, but I can at least try.

I liked the point of you saying the software was free though, how is your car hanging up? The engine was free, but unfortunatly you need to pay for the body of the car and the wheels. Does that make the car free?
#16 Jan 5 2012, 4:33 am
And what about us older users as opposed to new ones? What is it that keeps me here now, post learning to program off the wonderful BYOND software, aside from the proposition that for a fee, I can attempt to help other users here in the best way I know how: providing games and inspiration for people. (Not that I do that very well now anyway) The fact that I need to pay to do that now, sincerely makes the prospect of simply going back to C# funsies a lot more enciting. Whatever happens, I'll stay, not that it really matters to anyone, but if I were a brand new member, or if I were another person, I'd leave.
#17 Jan 5 2012, 5:03 am
El Wookie wrote:
Honestly don't think this is a personal attack at you Tiberath, I just think you've used a terrible wordset here.

I find this ironic for reasons forthcoming, just know I don't mean to offend you, merely slap you into the right direction.

Calling these tools on BYOND a Privilege is just the same as calling me being a user of them a Privilege for Tom.

Two comma's would have made my life a lot easier you know. I had to re-read that four times before I finally understood what the hell you meant.

These tools on BYOND are a privilege. They aren't at all required for you to make your game. You don't need them.

As for users being Tom's privileges, well, I haven't seen him propositioning the women users, but I haven't been all that active lately. Otherwise, I have no idea what the hell you mean.

BYOND users are divided into two groups. Free-loaders and customers. You're the former, I'm the latter. The latter is a much larger group than the former.

No I don't expect anything of BYOND,

Your following statements completely and utterly contradict this statement. You expect the single most expensive thing about BYOND to be free.

but that doesn't mean I won't leave if certain things aren't achieved. Of course I'm just one person, you'll say, just leave, you'll say.

Pretty much. People who want something for nothing at the expense of one guy who's already given so much aren't people I have any respect for. They remind me of the fella yelling at the young check-out girl 'cause he's had a bad day.

But I don't want to leave, which is why I'll stay and fight for the whole hub being membership only getting revoked as hard as I can.

What you want seems to be a perfect world where there is no money, and people work to achieve a sustained living with one another in harmony.

Unfortunately, you're delusional, 'cause that'll never happen in either of our lifetimes combined. We live in a cold, unforgiving world. And you in particular, live in one of the harshest capitalist countries in the world. Like it or not, there is one thing that you're going to have to live with, and no amount of complaining will ever change it: Business.

Like it or not, BYOND is a business, and a business needs to make money to survive. When it starts to struggle, cutbacks need to happen. That's the long and the short of it.

It's not as if me arguing is going to make a difference anyway, but I can at least try.

People who fight improbable battles and die trying are considered hero's. Those who fight completely impossible battles are considered to be morons. Make your choice carefully, 'cause there's no way all this effort is going to waste 'cause you don't like it.

I liked the point of you saying the software was free though, how is your car hanging up? The engine was free, but unfortunatly you need to pay for the body of the car and the wheels.

I don't own a car. But I see where you were trying to go with that. Allow me:

1: Free engine? What world do you live in? It'd have to either not be worth paying for, or worth more than the body it comes in.

2: If I'm paying for any necessary part of the car to function, the car isn't free.

Nice try buddy, but the hub isn't a necessary component of BYOND to function. It's just an extremely convenient one. There is a small difference.

Extremely convenient means that it can automatically do things that can become quite complex and detailed. User tracking, account management, stat tracking and awards are all extremely convenient things, and a great deal of users might not have access to the resources necessary to make them (I do, however).

This doesn't mean it's required. All of that stuff can be made by the developer themselves. I can do it with minimal effort on my part. All it would take is time, time I don't want to waste on such a thing, 'cause I can just buy a membership and use the hub. You might not be so lucky, and I'm sorry for that, ask me nicely sometime and I might buy you a membership.

A required component however is one that must be there for the thing to work. If Tom charged for Dream Seeker and claimed BYOND was free, he'd be lying unless he said "BYOND is free for making games". Then he'd be being shying on the point of false advertising, but not necessarily so. 'Cause if he's only charging for Dream Seeker, than BYOND would still be free for making games, just not playing them. Since he's selling neither, BYOND is completely 100% free.

The core components of BYOND really do sum up to being just the software. You don't even need a BYOND key to make, advertise, distribute and play a game. You can quite literally use BYOND without ever mentioning it to anyone. It's just extremely difficult to do so.

No, I'm not kidding. It can be done if you know all the tricks... Which no one not associated with BYOND in any way could possibly know, but it's still possible! And you don't need to be a member to learn the tricks or make it happen. An email to the right person would get you all the info you need in a heart-beat. Otherwise a few site searches can get you going.

Does that make the car free?

Nope. 'Cause you paid for a necessary component of the car. The hub isn't necessary my friend. Perhaps you should lean a bit about website development instead of complaining. It'll be a better suited use of your time.
#18 Jan 5 2012, 5:12 am
El Wookie wrote:
And what about us older users as opposed to new ones?

You mean the older users exactly like me?

What is it that keeps me here now,

That's entirely up to you to decide. Willingly leave BYOND for a whole week, and you'll soon see that it's curse is fake, you can escape. Just have to break the habit.

post learning to program off the wonderful BYOND software, aside from the proposition that for a fee, I can attempt to help other users here in the best way I know how: providing games and inspiration for people. (Not that I do that very well now anyway)

So I went after learning DM and around the delusion that you for some reason need to pay to help people, then you left your topic short. Where are you going with this?

The fact that I need to pay to do that now, sincerely makes the prospect of simply going back to C# funsies a lot more enciting.

You don't need to pay to use the forums, so you're entire argument is zip. You can help people, give them inspiration and provide programming advice 'till your hearts content.

And how's Microsoft's free supplied website for the every whim you make using C#? I hear their C# hub is one of the best free hosting resources of applications and games on the internet. Absolutely no money being charged to use it at all, and it's certainly not more than $24.00. Yep.

Whatever happens, I'll stay, not that it really matters to anyone, but if I were a brand new member, or if I were another person, I'd leave.

Oh! That's where you were going with the age related thing.

I think you'll find we've lost quite a few older and very helpful members of the community throughout 2010 - 2012. This move will not only entice a few of them to come back, but it'll also bring thousands more when people finally start advertising their games off-site. Read my comments below in reply to Tsfreaks, that'll help you to understand what's actually going on.
#19 Jan 5 2012, 11:41 am
I'm saying that if people really want a bug tracker, they'll use a free alternative rather than pay for the membership. People will still buy memberships but they're usually not doing it for the features. People will buy memberships because they like to support BYOND - that seems to be how it's always been. There are many benefactors (yourself included) that have purchased many memberships for people. You got zero benefit from this (in terms of website features, it was the people you were buying memberships for that got the features), but you still gave the money.

I think BYOND's best chance is to make BYOND a platform that's worth using and hope that some percentage of the population will donate to keep it going. The membership perks don't have to be worth the cost and BYOND doesn't need to focus on adding more inticing paid-for features. It just needs to be a better platform so it attracts more users (and more donations).
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