What should I do now? Ramblings. in Off Topic

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ID:317344
 
Feb 19 2012, 6:26 am (Edited on Feb 19 2012, 6:54 am)
http://www.byond.com/games/WritingANewOne/EterniaPrologue

If you've been following the development of my game you've probably noticed that the programming of the project has been unstable. You've probably seen me post many ads and a new programmer join the project every couple of months.

Sadly, that is the case - in over a year of managing the project I haven't been able to find a reliable, competent, and most importantly, permanent programmer for the project. I've offered money (both upfront and a royalty stake in the game). I've offered control over the game's design. I've provided everything from decent art to custom made music. At this point, I don't know what more can be done... I've even posted ads outside of BYOND to see if any experienced programmers would be interested in picking up the engine and taking on the project. All I had in response was people telling me that BYOND isn't a good engine and they'd rather rebuild the game from scratch... it pisses me off, frankly, because I see the potential in BYOND but others do not.

At this point, I don't know what to do or believe. Eternia is so far along that it seems silly and unproductive to ditch BYOND and make it in a different engine, but if no programmers (that can code well and will stay!) are interested in taking the game on, then what other options are there? I'd like to learn to code but I have a part-time job, a girlfriend, and college, which leaves me with little free time... and hell, even if I did learn to code, I doubt I would be able to grasp the content's of the source and avoid breaking everything.

And right now, BYOND excites me, it excites me a lot - I don't want to miss out on the Flash support and I enjoy being a part of this community in general. The last thing I want to do is leave BYOND but for over a month it's seemed like my only option because I've done everything I can to find a reliable programmer for the project. I've been secretly hoping some mature olbie from back when BYOND's community wasn't so anime based would return to the community and pick up the project. That would be cool. As you can see, that's how desperate I've become... I don't know of it's a fault with the game, myself, or BYOND's community itself. It's really frustrating to have a game that's almost complete and there's nobody around to pick it up, and when someone does, they always fail...

Eh, I don't know, I just felt like rambling. I've invested way too much money and time to let the project die. That will never be the case. I'll always be lurking somewhere.
#1 Feb 19 2012, 6:44 am
Tell me a single engine which gives you the option of coding a good game in so few time.

Now tell me a single engine which also gives you a good community.

Then tell me a single engine which also advertises your game after having a decent work done.

I'm serious, I know none. YoYo Games? That's sh*t!
People expect BYOND is bad because you can't create a 3D MMORPG from it, but who cares? You'd have to code on your own a lot of things and control multiple programs to create a decent online game on your own, and nobody'd help you at all unless they are pro at coding, and even though 2d games are nice, "pro programmers" outside BYOND don't spend a single second on them.

I recommend you to continue your game, I believe you'll have nice earnings (maybe more than NEStalgia), and will manage to attract a huge community.
#2 Feb 19 2012, 6:46 am
In response to Eternal_Memories (#1)
Eternal_Memories wrote:
I recommend you to continue your game, I believe you'll have nice earnings (maybe more than NEStalgia), and will manage to attract a huge community.

I can't continue the game if there is nobody to write code for it. That's the problem.

And it's more than just writing code: the source is a monster. Your average programmer isn't going to be able to code without breaking a thing or two, which is near enough a quote from the original programmer, SuperAntx.

I agree with you on that the game can make a lot of money... if I had the funds available I would be willing to invest maybe another $5000 into it. I'm more than confident I'll earn every penny back and more. What I've been thinking of doing is saving up $2000 or so and offering that as a sum for anyone that wants to finish the game... I think that would attract a few good programmers but my concern is whether or not they will stay once the game is released. It's probably not going to make a lot of money at first so what I really need is someone that sees the potential of the game like I do... but nobody does, or at least, that isn't enough for them to put the effort in.
#3 Feb 19 2012, 8:11 am
WANO, if you still can't find anyone willing to program your game after a while, don't give up on your project. Whenever you have free time and whenever you want to, learn to program in DM. It's not the greatest idea, finishing or even trying to finish the project by yourself, but sooner or later you'll find a programmer and who knows? By that time, you'll probably have coded in things you've wanted added.

Just don't let the game come to a complete stop because it has a lot of potential. Heck, if I were a great programming, I'd sign right up to help you.

Good luck!
#4 Feb 19 2012, 12:42 pm
I would have programmed for you but I'm simply a crap programmer. I have a lot of bad programming habits, and it would ruin the project for my code to be mixed in with SAx's code since he knows a lot more than I do.
#5 Feb 19 2012, 12:51 pm
Even though I understand it can be difficult to have someone stay on a project for a long period of time, I'm not exactly sympathetic. I've offered my help around 3 times, and I assume there must be others who've contacted you as well, if you've kept those contacts you can probably find more people to program for you. Although a lot of the better programmers have other things to do, I think your focusing too much on famous/well known programmers, rather then seeing if other programmers are capable.
#6 Feb 19 2012, 1:10 pm
In response to Megablaze (#5)
Megablaze wrote:
Even though I understand it can be difficult to have someone stay on a project for a long period of time, I'm not exactly sympathetic. I've offered my help around 3 times, and I assume there must be others who've contacted you as well, if you've kept those contacts you can probably find more people to program for you. Although a lot of the better programmers have other things to do, I think your focusing too much on famous/well known programmers, rather then seeing if other programmers are capable.

Right I kind of agree. I contacted you as well, no response at all.
#7 Feb 19 2012, 1:26 pm
In response to Megablaze (#5)
Megablaze wrote:
I think your focusing too much on famous/well known programmers, rather then seeing if other programmers are capable.

Sending the source code out is a big thing for me. I need programmers with a good reputation to avoid a disaster scenario where someone gets bored with the project and decides to do something silly. These are my requirements:

1.) The applicant has at least one project in their creations that they can show me. They're able to provide a sample of their code so I can have someone else review it.

2.) The applicant has a decent grasp of the English language unless it isn't their first language. They should definitely know simple things like the difference between your and you're.

3.) They have a good attitude. They're humble, respectful, and most importantly, someone that is easy for me to get along with.

4.) Their schedule leaves room to actually get progress done with programming. 10-15 hours a week of coding is what I expect.

If someone meets the above, they're free to apply... I don't think I'm being too picky - I mean, I have hired around 10 programmers since the project started... the only programmer that finished his job was SuperAntx. Those odds are not good at all.

I'm probably going to just forget about BYOND for a year or so and come back to see if there's any new talent around. I'll have a full-time job by then so I'll be able to save up that $2k too. As time passes and progress slows I've grown more apathetic to Eternia which is a bummer, since the artists put so much work into the project... I really wish the programmers could match them.
#8 Feb 19 2012, 1:46 pm
In response to Writing A New One (#7)
Writing A New One wrote:
Sending the source code out is a big thing for me. I need programmers with a good reputation to avoid a disaster scenario where someone gets bored with the project and decides to do something silly.

I understand this, but it doesn't mean you need to ignore all programmers who aren't well known, you can follow your own requirements and still find many programmers who aren't necessary a big part of the community.

If someone meets the above, they're free to apply...

People have applied, yet you only reach out to a couple people, and only when you make new Classifieds posts.

I'm probably going to just forget about BYOND for a year or so and come back to see if there's any new talent around.

I don't think time frame is really the issue, a fair amount of people know Eternia, or at least can see the potential and would be just as willing to get shared profit over being payed. People who are busy on and off, will likely continue to be busy. If you're expecting someone to suddenly spring up as a famous super programmer in a year, and will be free to work, good luck with that.
#9 Feb 19 2012, 3:27 pm
I can see the reason for a lot of people wanting to start from scratch even if they didn't feel BYOND was a bad engine. If the documentation on a large project is bad (which it almost certainly is on BYOND without a formal documentation tool) and you're brought in halfway then there's literally nothing you can do. And this quote:
Writing A New One wrote:
And it's more than just writing code: the source is a monster. Your average programmer isn't going to be able to code without breaking a thing or two, which is near enough a quote from the original programmer, SuperAntx.
suggests that those programmers' fears are very valid. Making your code obtuse and hard to understand isn't an accomplishment(outside of obfuscation contests) it's a failure in software design.*

You need good documentation at the least and if the project is massive UML diagrams are a must.

*Unless he was talking about your average BYOND programmer in which case there's loads they wouldn't understand about simple programs and I understand his concerns
#10 Feb 19 2012, 4:24 pm
3 words. do it yourself

1 year making a game with nice icons versus 1 day making a game with nice game-play

the game with nice game-play always wins
#11 Feb 19 2012, 4:31 pm
True. I do hear alot of people rehearse the "do it yourself" mantra. But sometimes it's just not practical. Why should he spend months teaching himself when there are other people who are proficient enough to do it already? It's not the fact that he can't. It's just more practical and smart to have someone experienced do something you are currently unable to do. Hence why development teams are put together in the first place. Some projects have scopes that are much too large for one person, even if one person can "do it all" themselves.
#12 Feb 19 2012, 5:06 pm
In response to Dariuc (#11)
Dariuc wrote:
Why should he spend months teaching himself when there are other people who are proficient enough to do it already?

Because the majority of projects that get finished on BYOND are solo efforts. Compare the productivity level of Aaiko, Falacy, Iain, and Forum_account to the average "development team" on BYOND and you'll see what I'm talking about. The only team I've seen consistency from is Silk Games ( they only discontinued one project that I know of ). One of the worst things you can do with a community like the one we have here is refuse to learn how to do things for yourself. If we had more competent, serious developers, we could afford to not learn and rely on other people, but that isn't the case.
#13 Feb 19 2012, 5:07 pm
In response to EmpirezTeam (#12)
EmpirezTeam wrote:
Dariuc wrote:
Why should he spend months teaching himself when there are other people who are proficient enough to do it already?

Because the majority of projects that get finished on BYOND are solo efforts. Compare the productivity level of Aaiko, Falacy, Iain, and Forum_account to the average "development team" on BYOND and you'll see what I'm talking about. The only team I've seen consistency from is Silk Games ( they only discontinued one project that I know of ). One of the worst things you can do with a community like the one we have here is refuse to learn how to do things for yourself. If we had more competent, serious developers, we could afford to not learn and rely on other people, but that isn't the case.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
this. listen to ET.
#14 Feb 19 2012, 8:07 pm
In response to Yut Put (#13)
Yut Put wrote:
EmpirezTeam wrote:
Dariuc wrote:
Why should he spend months teaching himself when there are other people who are proficient enough to do it already?

Because the majority of projects that get finished on BYOND are solo efforts. Compare the productivity level of Aaiko, Falacy, Iain, and Forum_account to the average "development team" on BYOND and you'll see what I'm talking about. The only team I've seen consistency from is Silk Games ( they only discontinued one project that I know of ). One of the worst things you can do with a community like the one we have here is refuse to learn how to do things for yourself. If we had more competent, serious developers, we could afford to not learn and rely on other people, but that isn't the case.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
this. listen to ET.


That would be valid if people were asking you to do something for free. In the real world when people want to make money they take on a job and finish it. That doesn't apply to Byond, anytime you attempt to contract anyone to do anything Byond related it fails miserably.

I know from personal experience. It could be something as simple as making 10-12 pixel arts, which I actually attempted to have someone do last week. They worked on it one day, did half the work and have been dodging me on messenger ever since.
#15 Feb 19 2012, 8:09 pm
In response to Yut Put (#13)
Or even better an example of programming work. Numerous people applied to do something simple for me that would only take an hour or two of their time, yet every time I approached them about it, they would claim it would take a few days/weeks. His expectations aren't unrealistic, in fact it's just the attitude of the community that is out of touch with everywhere else in the world in this aspect.
#16 Feb 19 2012, 8:34 pm
Only the idiots will pay money for people to make their non-profit games for them. 100% of the games i've freelanced for have been discontinued. nuff said
#17 Feb 19 2012, 8:37 pm
In response to Yut Put (#16)
Yut Put wrote:
Only the idiots will pay money for people to make their non-profit games for them. 100% of the games i've freelanced for have been discontinued. nuff said

He's not making a non-profit game, and neither am I. He mentioned that in his OP.


#18 Feb 19 2012, 8:41 pm
In response to Dariuc (#17)
Dariuc wrote:
Yut Put wrote:
Only the idiots will pay money for people to make their non-profit games for them. 100% of the games i've freelanced for have been discontinued. nuff said

He's not making a non-profit game, and neither am I. He mentioned that in his OP.



And even if they are discontinued, as long as you were paid... does it matter? :P
#19 Feb 19 2012, 8:45 pm
Basically, he has two options:

1. Lower his already low standards ( so that the average BYONDer can actually meet them )

2. Learn to program ( because hoping that a competent programmer will drop out the sky eventually probably won't yield great results )
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