Ingame Religions in Design Philosophy

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ID:154396
 
Oct 27 2001, 8:26 pm
When creating RPGs, do you think it is a good idea to create a religion? Esp, if the topic is non-Earth based?

My "RPG" will be in a world unrelated to earth, and I find it quite hard to come up with religions that are not similar to Earth-types. Any hint on this?

#1 Oct 27 2001, 9:45 pm
You could worship somthing other then a god. In fact, there don't have to be "religeons". They could be "Brotherhoods" that worship each other brother. And that's only the seed of a religeon.

Make something origional, and certianly not monotheocratic. Make diversity!
#2 Oct 28 2001, 12:09 am
In response to Lord of Water (#1)
Religions are very similar to science. They are simply theories and guesses as to how the world around us works. The main diffrence being that science usses techniques to test and prove these theories, whereas most religions would scorn such practices as "unfaithful".

Religions are also alot like governments. Whereby government seeks to control and unify the population through law and eonomics, religions control using fear and promises. (well, the big ones anyways, certian "earth-based religions" put no constraints on it's practictioners' will)

Any religion you create should be a reflection of the world in which it was created. Say, for example, your world has magic, you should incorporate that into the religion(s). Perhaps having one religion embracing the magic, while another shuns it.

Take into account the technological aspect of the people. Are they cruising around in flying vehicles, or walking behind an ox and a plow? Have they even discovered electricity? Are they explorers on the high seas or do they live in caves high in the mountains?

Base certain aspects of the religion on enviormental conditions as well. For example, in Hawaii, before the white man came. They worshiped and feared the local volcanoes which formed their island chain. Fear playes a big part in religion, as does death. What do your people fear? Snow? Monsters? Large pieces of jello that randomly fall from the heavens?

You could also take into consideration the family structure. Do your people live in congregations or single family units, and if so, are the families immediate or nuclear (meaning do the grandparents stick around, or do they burn them when they reach a certain age? Or do the uncles and nieces and nefews and aunts all live together in one home?)

Religion is a funny thing. Having you people worshipping what they fear would be a common aproach, as would having them worshipping the stars (as the Egyptians did (they believed them to be the dead kings of Egypt))

You could go off on a completely unrelated tangent and just have everyone worshiping peaches, and hating plums as evil... Who knows? Anything is possible in that world!

I hope this helps to get those gears working in your head, if not, I suggest your local library or favorite search engine...
#3 Oct 28 2001, 9:56 am
I think the safest way to go would be to have "non religious religion" where say instead of building a temple to worship the god of water in the desert, they build a temple to show their tanks to the water for helping them survive in the desert... It might sound cheesy, but it's better than potentially losing players over something like that.
#4 Oct 28 2001, 12:05 pm
In response to Foomer (#3)
Er... I fail to follow your advanced logic here.
#5 Oct 28 2001, 12:26 pm
In response to Lord of Water (#4)
Well, IMO it depends on whos following the religion. If you mean to just have NPCs supposedly following them, then the earlier ideas are all good ones.

However if you expect PCs to play from a religios standpoint, I think that such an approach would be a little to complex, and perhaps a little too confining for most players.

For a PC religion, and I know this sounds kinda overdone but it works, take an area of the human experience.

For instance Ill use the oft overuse cliche of honour.

Take honour and try to decide what you want to assosiate it with. The oft overused God-Knight of good comes to mind (I said it was cliched ^_~ ). Of course, you dont have to follow the cliche that far. ^_^ Instead of making it a God (which people tend to assosiate with mankind anyways), why not make it a natural element, or perhaps have it embodied by a animal or creature of some kind. So suddenly instead of following a god, who acts and takes form as man, you can follow a aspect of nature.

The celts (before anglo-saxon rule) would belive that an area had a deity. A river spirit, a forest spirit, etc. All different, but all worth asking for guidance and protection.

My advice though, would for PC religions to make them as general as you can. People tend to resent being forced into a belief system in general. Those that arent religious IRL would pull away because of thier natural feelings on the subject, and religious people would see the differences between thier religion irl, and the edicts of the one in the game, and get rather pissed off.

Remember, 90% of the religions in the world today only differ one a -very- few concepts, but those very few concepts also cause a very large number of conflicts ^^;;

Anyways, Ill stop with my essay there I guess *LOL* ^_^

Have a good day everyone ^_^

Elorien
#6 Oct 28 2001, 1:01 pm
sunzoner wrote:
When creating RPGs, do you think it is a good idea to create a religion? Esp, if the topic is non-Earth based?

My "RPG" will be in a world unrelated to earth, and I find it quite hard to come up with religions that are not similar to Earth-types. Any hint on this?

If you reject the concept of religion being revealed by God (and thus, a religion would exist on this planet similar to one of those that exists on this one), and instead look at religion as a sort of mutable set of ideas, then a good place to start would be to look at so-called "basic" religions on this planet.

Essentially, any of the following are likely to be of mystical significance to a superstitious people:

  • Life and death. This concept includes the passing of generations, so it covers how they'll view children and ancestors (living or dead).

  • Day and night, seasons, and years.

  • Celestial bodies. These are even more important in how they relate to seasonal and day/night cycles. It is very common for such bodies to be worshipped as gods. Depending on the number of moons, suns, and so on, this could easily be the basis of a kind of polytheism.

  • Any part of nature. Animism, whose adherents may worship a tree as well as a river or a rock, is very common to basic religions.

  • Available food and water sources, and their relative availability. The mechanisms of survival take on supreme importance in a desert region, for example.

  • Riches and items of great value. The principle of sacrifice is in just about every religion, and it's likely that precious metals and stones would be used as offerings.

    What you may see emerge would be something similar to what we have on this planet, but if you subscribe to the idea that religion grows out of a collection of superstitions and myths (I don't), then that's about all you're likely to get.

    Lummox JR
#7 Oct 28 2001, 11:11 pm
In response to Lord of Water (#4)
Okay, what's a good way to say "I find in-game religions a major turn off." ...?
#8 Oct 28 2001, 11:16 pm
In response to Foomer (#7)
*spew*
#9 Oct 29 2001, 10:48 am
In response to Xooxer (#8)
o.O

Spew?
#10 Oct 29 2001, 11:20 am
In response to Lord of Water (#9)
It's american slang for vomiting... as is ralf, unsure why though...
#11 Oct 29 2001, 11:48 am
In response to Foomer (#3)
Foomer wrote:
I think the safest way to go would be to have "non religious religion" where say instead of building a temple to worship the god of water in the desert, they build a temple to show their tanks to the water for helping them survive in the desert... It might sound cheesy, but it's better than potentially losing players over something like that.

Most online games already have something along those lines--it's called "The High Church of l337", a fanatic religion which worships no deities but offers prayers of gratitude (frequently mistaken by outsiders for random strings of profanity) for max stats and m4d sk1llz.
#12 Oct 29 2001, 11:52 am
In response to Foomer (#7)
I will never understand this... you have a problem with player characters following, for instance, a collection of "gods" and "goddesses"... but not with them building altars and idols to elemental concepts? What exactly is the basis of this objection??? The obvious answer would be it's because of your own religious background... but unless you belong to some religion I'm miraculously unfamiliar with, you massively fail to understand your own religion... because idolatry by any other name is still idolatry. "god" (lowercase g) is just a word. Whether you call an object of worship and praise "god" or "elemental force" or "world tree" or whatever, it's still an object of worship and praise. You have to decide: is it blasphemy to roleplay religion, or isn't it? You can't go around saying, if you call them gods and demons, it's unacceptable.

Go ask your local figure of religious authority, "Is it okay if I build a shrine in the desert to thank the water for growing crops for me?"

You had the same half-baked objection to what I described as "demons" in WOLQ... you didn't want to play a game where damned characters could gain powers by pledging servitude to demons. But you suggested that if they gained elemental powers instead, perhaps from abstract elemental sources, it would be okay. Um... hello, massive hypocrite? The fact that you didn't go screaming into the night at the fact that my game includes the possibility of being "damned" for turning your back on "the powers of light" negates any real religious objection you could raise. Anyways, how could the supernatural beings which grant powers to "damned" servitors NOT be demons? I'll call them Elemental Principles, if you like. Guess what? A rose by any other name is STILL A ****ING DEMON, GENIUS. If Lucifer shows up knocking on your door, looking for your soul, he'll probably hand you a card that says "A. FLAME, Elemental Powers, LLC."

Let's boil it down to this one point: is role-playing real, or isn't it? You love to play evil characters... to the point where you questioned me for penalizing them unfairly (part of a model of morality in my game, good players are rewarded, evil characters are punished)... obviously, you're not an evil person. Why can you separate those actions from reality, but not ones which touch upon 'religion'?
#13 Oct 29 2001, 11:57 am
In response to Xooxer (#10)
You're unsure about "spew?" Compared to "ralf," it's pretty obvious. Here's the primary definition of "spew":

1. To send or force out in or as if in a stream; eject forcefully or in large amounts: a volcano that spewed molten lava; spewed invective at his opponent.

It isn't slang... it's proper usage! In fact, here's a secondary definition:

2. To vomit.
#14 Oct 29 2001, 12:02 pm
In response to LexyBitch (#13)
My mistake... :-)
#15 Oct 29 2001, 12:07 pm
In response to LexyBitch (#12)
LexyBitch wrote:
I will never understand this... you have a problem with player characters following, for instance, a collection of "gods" and "goddesses"... but not with them building altars and idols to elemental concepts? What exactly is the basis of this objection??? The obvious answer would be it's because of your own religious background... but unless you belong to some religion I'm miraculously unfamiliar with, you massively fail to understand your own religion... because idolatry by any other name is still idolatry. "god" (lowercase g) is just a word. Whether you call an object of worship and praise "god" or "elemental force" or "world tree" or whatever, it's still an object of worship and praise. You have to decide: is it blasphemy to roleplay religion, or isn't it? You can't go around saying, if you call them gods and demons, it's unacceptable.

The point is not to be worshiping it. Idolatry requres that you worship something. Worshiping the elements is still worshiping something. I never suggested anything like that, you just interpreted it that way.


Go ask your local figure of religious authority, "Is it okay if I build a shrine in the desert to thank the water for growing crops for me?"

Who cares what local figures of religious authority think? If it's your world, you can do whatever you want!


You had the same half-baked objection to what I described as "demons" in WOLQ... you didn't want to play a game where damned characters could gain powers by pledging servitude to demons. But you suggested that if they gained elemental powers instead, perhaps from abstract elemental sources, it would be okay. Um... hello, massive hypocrite? The fact that you didn't go screaming into the night at the fact that my game includes the possibility of being "damned" for turning your back on "the powers of light" negates any real religious objection you could raise. Anyways, how could the supernatural beings which grant powers to "damned" servitors NOT be demons? I'll call them Elemental Principles, if you like. Guess what? A rose by any other name is STILL A ****ING DEMON, GENIUS. If Lucifer shows up knocking on your door, looking for your soul, he'll probably hand you a card that says "A. FLAME, Elemental Powers, LLC."

It's only a demon if you make it a demon. Once again, it's up to the creator. What realistic religions teach means nothing in your creation. Things mean what you want them to mean.


Let's boil it down to this one point: is role-playing real, or isn't it? You love to play evil characters... to the point where you questioned me for penalizing them unfairly (part of a model of morality in my game, good players are rewarded, evil characters are punished)... obviously, you're not an evil person. Why can you separate those actions from reality, but not ones which touch upon 'religion'?

I only liked the evil characters because if I played anything else, the monsters would always kill me when I lagged.

If you don't like my answers, too bad, I don't feel like explaining them any more than this.
#16 Oct 29 2001, 12:39 pm
In response to Foomer (#15)
If you don't want to explain, don't say anything at all. I mean, here you are, suggesting that creators make concessions to a class of gamers that includes yourself... and you're unwilling to explain why those concessions are necessary!

If I make an artificial being in my game, made of metal, powered and controlled by mechanical and electrical sources, I can call it a Shrimgokumon... but guess what? IT'S A ROBOT.

If I make a character named Imperator Umbragos, Dark Lord of the Under-Realm and Prince of That Which Is Not, who barters with players who have turned their backs on the Principles of Justice, that character... A DEMON. It doesn't matter if I tiptoe or pussyfoot around it. A demon is a demon is a demon. Calling him something else is just splitting hairs. Tell me what it changes to call him something else, and I will... otherwise, keep your mouth shut. If you can't defend a statement, don't make it... and if you can't defend your beliefs, ask yourself why you hold them.
#17 Oct 29 2001, 12:48 pm
In response to LexyBitch (#16)
I won't.

I still dislike the idea.

Defending something against people like you is only asking for arguments.
#18 Oct 29 2001, 1:01 pm
In response to Foomer (#17)
No, going into a game created by someone like me, criticizing something, and then refusing to explain the basis of your criticism is asking for an argument.

Arguments settle things. You think putting religions into games is a bad idea, I think putting religions into games is a good idea. I'm not telling anyone, though, that they should put religions into their games in order to attract/pacify a certain segment of gamers, so I feel content to make my games the way I like and let others do the same. If you can explain, in a logical fashion, why your viewpoint is valid, I won't have a 180 degree change in my orientation, but I will at least acknowledge its validity and make what token changes are needed. After all, it's a cornerstone of my argument that it doesn't matter if I call the ancient, evil powers "demons" or not, so I have nothing at all to lose by changing. Still for all that, I have no compelling reason to make the change... and you have yet to provide me with one.

Look, my stance is the weak one here: I'm saying it doesn't matter, one way or the other, whether there are something called "demons" in a game. I'm not emotionally invested in the matter, one way or the other. I have apathy, you have... what? Believe? Conviction? Opinion? You've got something motivating you. Show it. Don't do it because I ask, though... do it for yourself. If you can't defend your beliefs, you have no way of knowing if they're even defensible.

Here's a deal: articulate the reasons behind your dislike, and I'll remove all vestiges of gods and demons from WOLQ. I'll fall back on the vague, genericities like "powers of existence" and "principles of annihilation." I will revise my entire creative vision, a process which you must no galls me, to show that when one expresses one's viewpoint clearly, one validates it.
#19 Oct 29 2001, 1:31 pm
In response to LexyBitch (#18)
You know lexy, the most difficult part of arguing with you is trying to read several paragraphs of myself being bashed on. I usually give up after the first two lines and decide I have better things to do with my time.
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