ID:27288
 
Keywords: gamedesign
Throughout game design history, one very common discussion is the fabled one about character advancement design.

Typically, this discussion places people in one of several groups.

There are those who like levels, and those who dislike them.

There are those who like classes, and those who like more open-ended skill-based systems.

Now, game design has eventually figured out that levels, classes and skills aren't all that make a character. People place high value in cosmetics (banners, unique item looks, personal titles, ladder-ranks and similar) and that can be... exploited, when designing systems for a game. Character advancement is no longer restricted by in-game benefits, nor by benefits that relate strictly to the pwer of that character in combat. This becomes more obvious, as more options become available in games.

A comment by me to a previous blog post mentioned labels, and I find them to be fairly important in this case. I've taken part in a lot of discussions about the role of classes, the social aspects of being placed in a box as a class and as a gender ("Females are more likely to play healing classes", et cetera) and I've always come out with the same conclusion:

Boxes and labels exist whether you want them to or not; Whether you want to take control of them or not, only matters in the context of what makes a game more or less fun.

A great example of this, is Diablo. You could strip away all skill trees in Diablo, and simply add the following:

The Hammerdin
The Smitedin
The Firewall Sorceror
The Nova Sorceror
The Whirlwind Barbarian
The Trapasin
The corpse explosion necro
The zoo necro

et cetera, ad nausium.

Or you could become creative, and call them things like:

"Paladin", "Fire Mage", "Berzerker", "Trapper".

In essence, its all the exact same thing. However, had this been done in Diablo, it would've taken away the possibility for players to make bad choices and for players to discover these builds on their own. It also provides the very important illusion that the player is in control;

I garantee you with absolute certainty that at least 80% of the builds made in Diablo have already been charted and thought through by Blizzard; Perhaps more. Control is an illusion in games, in that sense. However, believing that you have the power to dabble and take your character 'where you want', adds a great deal to the longevity of games; Especially when doing things over requires you to play the game over again.

Lets look at another example: Clearly defined labels(Classes). Take class example nr.1: World of Warcraft.

World of Warcraft features 9 classes:

Druid, Mage, Paladin, Shaman, Warrior, Rogue, Warlock, Priest, Hunter.

Each class is unique in its design and approach to the job that the class was intended to perform, both on a solo- level, a group- level and a raid-level. They have 'variety' within their label based on talents, which a player may freely place (and for gold, redistribute if they so wish) in 3 skill trees unique to their class. This allows a player to perform within their label, but still deviate if need be.

In essence, World of Warcraft created 18 classes: The Player versus Enemy version of each class, and the Player versus Player version. The reality is slightly more complex, but the overall effect remains the same. There is a single reason why talent trees are completely irrelevant: The world can't bear it.

Had they created Feral Druids and Resto Druids, PvP Warlocks and low-threat Warlocks, Tanking Warriors and DPS Warriors, et cetera - The effect would've likely been close to the same. The idea of specializing a character is solid, but the basic foundation of the game rests solely on combat for advancement and thus is inherently restricted to combat; as luck would have it, there are two forms of combat: Player versus Player, and Player versus Enemy. As such, there is a single set of talent points which is unequivocally the most profitable for a single person to be using.

Again, the truth is not far from this - Experienced WoW players will argue that talent specs vary on raid-level, gear-level and similar; Yes, this is true. But they do so in a manner which linearly approaches the EXACT same selection of talent points.

Again, I come to the same conclusion: What choice was the user ACTUALLY afforded? In reality, the choice is simple: Do you want to be at a disadvantage (Place talent points wrong for your one of two playmodes), or be on-par with everyone else? (Place talent points correct for your one of two playmodes).

I'll follow this blog up when I have time, with some possible solutions as far as game models go. Until then, I'm curious how YOU feel;

What experience with online games have you had, and what worked and didn't work for you? Do you like class-based systems? Which one, and why was it fun? Do you like levels? Which game with levels did you like and why?

Cheers

How many ways can you skin a cat?

I dunno; CRPGs seem to focus on how many ways you can kill it. Over and over. For exp.
Jmurph wrote:
How many ways can you skin a cat?

I dunno; CRPGs seem to focus on how many ways you can kill it. Over and over. For exp.

Dynamics do change a little, when you start to consider social interaction as a part of the equation. Group-skinning?

Ultimately, the biggest constraint I see is the inherent focus on combat as being the only time-effective form of content that developers usually seek out; Now also tradeskills, which are just a masked form of combat. Instead of fighting a dragon, I'm fighting my stove (See EQ2 or Vanguard: Saga of Heroes for examples).
The "spend this many talent points per level" style never really made sense to me. If you spend all day killing your enemies with daggers, how are you suddenly going to learn how to use poisons better?

I prefer systems without clear-cut levels, systems that use gradual (possibly unannounced) stat and talent gains based on how you play. One advantage to this style, is that if you set up your game correctly, there would be no need for "grinding." Whenever someone says they spent all yesterday grinding, I just cringe and wonder what better things they could have spent their time on.

I believe in something similar for classes: if you practice hard enough, why shouldn't a mage/wizard be able to hold a two-handed sword? And why can't a rogue pick up the occasional fireball spell?

Of course, in a RPG-based society, the mages, for example, would exclusively train the mage apprentices (You know how secretive they can be.) However, that doesn't mean you can't have a mage here or there who will train anyone, for the right price. Or maybe give warriors a chance to raid enemy mage libraries and pick up a spell or two. Heck, why not let rogues steal a book?

It should be as open as possible for a true role-playing game.
What we have going on in the Progeny is the choice to major in a skill and minor in a skill, those skills each receive a boost in both during level up. So there are potentially 36 classes, plus the fact that different races are given bonuses to skills on level up so a Strength/Heart warrior(equivalent to a paladin) is much different being played as an elf(who gain an intellect bonus and could thus semi-proficiently use spells) than being played as a an orc who's meelee dps would probably be unequaled.
You bring up a lot of different points, I'll try and answer them in categories:

Realism vs. "Fun"
DarkCampainger wrote:
The "spend this many talent points per level" style never really made sense to me. If you spend all day killing your enemies with daggers, how are you suddenly going to learn how to use poisons better?

The question is really, will forcing a player to try and make poisons / use poisons in order to get better at it provide a better game? Granted, it makes logical sense that I would get better at playing music by playing an instrument, not sowing apple trees; But what if learning to play an instrument is obtusely boring?

What is fun?
This gets you into a discussion about making trivial tasks fun, which might be said to be superceded by the question: Why are you being required to do boring tasks in the first place?

That, then leads on to figuring out what is boring and what isn't. Is all action with player interaction fun? Is all action WITHOUT player interaction boring?

Repetition
Anyone who has played a game with combat will comment that combat eventually became boring; If not right away, then surely after the umpteenth kill. Why is this? Repetition probably plays a large part in it.

If Frodo got ambushed by a Cave Troll every five minutes in Lord of the Rings, it would get fairly dull by the third or fourth cave troll, I imagine.

Systems which force you to perform actions related to the one you're trying to improve usually provide a series of very dull actions to do this with. Either you're hampered by actions which require expensive situations, or you're stuck with boring actions and an eventual 'macro bot' to improve your poison skill. Thats the question that quite a few games have tried to 'answer' by simply providing a general way to advance your character, leaving the choice of whats fun to the player.

Whether thats a good or a bad thing, though, is a good question.

I prefer systems without clear-cut levels, systems that use gradual (possibly unannounced) stat and talent gains based on how you play. One advantage to this style, is that if you set up your game correctly, there would be no need for "grinding." Whenever someone says they spent all yesterday grinding, I just cringe and wonder what better things they could have spent their time on.

Hiding game mechanics
I disagree; Hiding stats has, historically speaking, done absolutely nothing to shield game mechanics. If I don't have experience points, but instead have a gradually increasing bar, I'm going to automatically assign percentages. Instead of a 'low level kill' yielding me 23.5 XP, it now yields me 2% at level 5.

Shielding the player from advancement
Hiding stats completely is something you need to be really careful with; Advancement provides joy for players, and enjoyment is fairly vital. If you can find ways to provide a feeling of enjoyment and entertainment in an online game which isnt tied to the advancement of stats, then great; However, if you levy your game goals on achievements which somehow require stats, expect stats to indirectly mean joy. Hiding them, provides less milestones for players to reach - Which might result in burnout.

I believe in something similar for classes: if you practice hard enough, why shouldn't a mage/wizard be able to hold a two-handed sword? And why can't a rogue pick up the occasional fireball spell?

Of course, in a RPG-based society, the mages, for example, would exclusively train the mage apprentices (You know how secretive they can be.) However, that doesn't mean you can't have a mage here or there who will train anyone, for the right price. Or maybe give warriors a chance to raid enemy mage libraries and pick a spell or two. Heck, why not let rogues steal a book?

It should be as open as possible for a true role-playing game.

This usually has to do with stepping in on other peoples areas.

Specializing and the jack-of-all-trades possibility
What makes a mage special? If its his ability to wield magic, then what makes him special if a plate-wearing warrior can wield magic too? Vice versa.

Quite a few games have tried giving players 'focus areas' instead of classes, and making training outside of your focus more difficult - Inherently achieving the effect you're talking about. But I can't think of any really well-implemented versions of something like this; Although I'm a big fan of 'focus areas' kontra classes, because I do find classes to be too rigid in that they carry with them a psychological value that is too important.
Edit: This ended up longer than I expected. O.o Sorry!

I've never been a fan of the idea of hiding statistics from a player. It sounds nice to say "if you set up your game correctly, there won't be any grinding" but then I wonder why you couldn't just do that any have stats viewable anyway.

Final Fantasy Online on Byond comes to mind; the only stats you can actually see are your health and magic, so those are the only things to look forward to when you gain a level. If you have a good party, the game's not really all that grindy, but when your character's advancement becomes more nebulous, I think it gives the illusion of a game being even MORE grindy than it really is. If I try to play in one area in the game and lose, I can look at my character stats and probably try to throw out a number of what to achieve before trying again. Hide those stats, and I start to question whether or not I'm even advancing in the first place.

As for realism VS fun, well...I guess some realism is okay, but my primary reason for playing a game is to have fun. You might try to throw in a minigame for poison-making, but just like combat mentioned earlier, it's going to get boring after a while. Still, I'd rather be able to use combat as a means of raising other abilities because I'd be willing to bet that a greater amount of time has been spent fleshing out the fighting in a game than you did making minigame-3452.

I think it's rather odd to try to use an MMO like World of Warcraft as an example for RPGish debates. WoW, Everquest, etc. are based around spending as much time as possible on playing, because the subscription money is what keeps them going. For something like a computer or console RPG (or just about anything else), that's not as big an issue because they'll already have your cash by the time you buy it.

I played Ragnarok Online as my first MMO, and it probably ruined my perception of the entire genre. A friend wanted me to get it so we could play together, but he was already ahead of me in level. Made a thief character, played my way to LV57 before I got bored of the grind and quit. My only motivation in the first place was to try to catch up to my friend, but each time I did he'd get further out of reach. Eventually I had enough and committed character suicide (by chucking all of my items on the ground in a populated area and logging out :P).

Make whatever gameplay system you want, and (with some moderation) grind isn't always a bad thing. The thing is, in single player games, isn't there typically a beginning and an end? Even if the storyline made for the game is cheesy as hell, it can still provide motivation through bumpy spots while you play. Here's how I see it.

Final Fantasy 7: Why is my character here? His girlfriend guilted him into joining a Captain Planetish terrorist group to blow up a power plant.

Ragnarok Online: Why is my character here? Just to level up, I guess...

I'd think that combat in general isn't the most important thing in an RPG, but a plot that fits with it. I burned out of Ragnarok Online because there was only one goal for me; +1 to my level, which was the last goal I had, and the one I had before that, and so on.

It's like eating pizza every day for a week (and I think I have the right to use this analogy because I really did that once). It doesn't matter how much you enjoy it. Eventually you're going to get sick and tired of having pizza day in, day out. At least you can prolong your enjoyment by mixing up the toppings, or ordering it from a different restaurant. It's still a pizza, but it's not the SAME pizza. Otherwise it's just burns you out on it after a while.
Sarm wrote:
I think it's rather odd to try to use an MMO like World of Warcraft as an example for RPGish debates. WoW, Everquest, etc. are based around spending as much time as possible on playing, because the subscription money is what keeps them going. For something like a computer or console RPG (or just about anything else), that's not as big an issue because they'll already have your cash by the time you buy it.

Well, thats because this was specifically intended as a debate on multiplayer, online games. The rules change DRASTICALLY for single-player games :)

As a rule of thumb, designers usually love the games they work on, despite the fact that they're forced to sometimes make bad decisions as far as the integrity of the game goes, in the name of money and popularity. Thats the experience I've gathered from working on projects myself, and knowing various designers around who work on MMORPGs.

I used WoW as an example because it presents a duality in many ways; It presents some of the most unique content an MMORPG has ever seen, while at the same time providing a close to Lineage II'ish grind, right alongside it. It presents a rather open-ended class system with talents, and completely restricts it because of content design decisions, itemization and gameplay limitation. Its an interesting beast, if nothing else, World of Warcraft.

Its also what I'd call the first of the newer generation of MMORPGs, if you don't lobby that to EverQuest 2 (Which is an odd shape, and a very late bloomer).

Theres a large amount of very open-ended MMORPGs being developed right now, the question is merely whether technology can suffice and whether the money is there (i.e. whether they turn from vaporware to actual games); If you're interested in listening to some of the developers at the forefront of Sony, Blizzard, Sigil Games and more, some of them can be found lurking around MMORoundtable.com occasionally.
Lexy's rule: If everyone is upset, it's balanced.
Jtgibson wrote:
Lexy's rule: If everyone is upset, it's balanced.

Yeah, thats a classic ;) I think the original was phrased something akin to this:

"People always whine. If everyone is whining an equal amount, you've got balance".