ID:94274
 
Keywords: design
Despite my promises to get caught up with my school work, I seem to be spending more time contemplating which direction to go with Planetbreakers. I received a bit of inspiration yesterday when I encountered Leftley's Lode Wars. Somebody's been hosting it over the past few days, and that works out just fine for me because I always wanted to get a look at it.

Overall, Lode Wars is a pretty great game, it holds up remarkably well against most BYOND games considering it was made almost 8 years ago. It's very much a game that's the kind of game I've been wanting to make. I'd have liked to have met Leftley, we're on similar minds about our taste in games.

Quite an excellent amount of detail went into that HUD, long before 4.0x skins were a reality.
However, Lode Wars is not without its down sides, and these are the main reasons why I'm going for a Dwarf Fortress / M.U.L.E. hybrid.

You're done. Let the computer do the heavy lifting.

Mentally, you know what you want to do in Lode Wars: you see a bunch of dirt, you want to dig out several squares, find some ore, and bring it to the home bin. However, long after you've decided on your plan, you're going to still be spending several minutes bumping up against dirt panels. That can be pretty boring, especially if you're playing alone and not expecting complications.

The thing is, I've reached a certain point where most RPGs don't amuse me much because the decisions made aren't complex enough:
  • There's an enemy. You have a weapon. Attack them with your weapon.
  • You're injured. You have a health potion. Drink your health potion.
  • You've collected 5 swatches of leather. You want a leather coat. Go up to the magic box, painstakingly drag each swatch into the box, and push the "combine" button.
Are we having fun yet? I don't really find these to be very meaningful choices. If only there was an incredible technological device whose very purpose was to work out the details of overly monotonous mental busywork. One that knows how to compute simple decisions based off of their obvious rules so that the players need only be bothered with the interesting decisions. We'll call it a... computer?

There. That's what I want done. Glad it's you guys grubbing in the dirt and not me.
Dwarf Fortress impresses me because it does precisely that, automating a great deal of the monotony out of an RPG. Given the average Lode Wars task, you need only designate where to dig, designate where ore is stored, and that's it. You're done. Your dwarves take care of all that bumping up against dirt walls and hauling ore for you, probably faster than you could do it yourself.

Leftley did not have the benefit in 2002 of seeing Dwarf Fortress, but if he did, would he have done things differently? Well, I have similar tasks to be done in my own game, and I'm choosing this approach.

Sure, this is fun, but what's the point?

For most games, fun is the point. Virtual environments complicate things a bit, because now we've a nice virtual backdrop that we can get good and invested in. We invent a greater narrative backdrop of why upon everything.

Leftley created a fairly compelling backdrop, but it was ultimately the why behind it that killed it for him. It became something other than what he intended. As he put it:
Few attempts are made to utilize even the few basic tactical resources included in the half-finished game; the goal of attempting to out-collect the other teams was eschewed as being secondary to self-enrichment; teammates were seen as rivals at best, nuisances or even targets at worst, but virtually never as allies.
Lode Wars was made for a world where all the players work together, the teams stay even because they savor a challenging match over winning. A world where everybody takes the high road to a better gameplay experience, not the low road to just earn more virtual dosh.

In my years of MMORPG observation, I can tell you that we do not live in such a world. More typically, all but a rare few are simply seeking the path of least resistance to "win." Just as typical, the anonymity of the Internet can bring out the worst in people, and they may regard your game as a dumping ground for their life's emotional baggage. (That being why ban buttons exist.)

Leftley's game was awesome enough that suddenly there was something worth bickering over. When he came into contact with this, and he had the same reaction Origin did when they came in contact with the unbearable darkness of Ultima Online, "Oh my God - I can't believe you people, we just can't have nice things!"

Aaaigh! This is why we can't have nice things!
But I don't believe that's the issue. I believe the issue is simply a matter of setting the right incentives. Lode Wars is a game where there really is only one incentive: earning cash for more toys. How do you earn cash for more toys? See the above blockquote, as it basically outlines the most efficient way to make cash. The players behaved exactly as the game was inadvertently designed, nothing more.

The solution is to give the players the right incentives. It works like this:
  • You, as the game designer, have some understanding as to how the optimal way the game should be played as to be enjoyable. You understand the various ways the players can play the game that would jeopardize this.
  • Most players will naturally seek the path of least resistance to "win." This isn't because they're stupid, but rather because they're smart. It's a function of intelligence to quickly locate the path of least resistance.
  • When the path of least resistance becomes the optimal way the game should be played, then you have succeeded in your goal of setting the incentives correctly.
Why did early Ultima Online become such a mess of griefing? It wasn't because the players could grief, it was because it was the most enjoyable activity, and you could earn more in 30 seconds by stealing from somebody else than you could in several days of grinding. The incentives were all off.

Setting the right incentives is tricky. You probably won't get it right the first time. However, it illustrates why conceptualizing a higher overall purpose becomes important. This is where M.U.L.E. comes in. It's an interesting model of this external "higher overall purpose." Yes, the players compete with one another, but at the same time there's a colony at stake, and an incentive for all players to see that colony succeed, lest they all fail.
Are you asian?
Lode Wars is my all-time favorite BYOND game. It's a pity it suffers from a savefile bug that wipes characters unintentionally because that's really its only down side.

When Lode Wars was first released I think the pager had a lot more activity, and so this game got a large number of players on a consistent basis. On a good Saturday night you could expect maybe 15-20 players. If you had large teams you could let each teammate focus on whatever they did best: Exploring, hauling, raiding, or guarding. Communication was crucial, especially if you were trying to direct someone to an ore deposit so they could help you dig it out or haul it away. Most games I got to focus on the fun of exploring for ore and bringing back the big hauls, but occasionally I'd sidetrack into defending the base, and even now and then I felt like risking a raid on the enemy base just to see what I could do. It was a riot.

Since your mention of Dwarf Fortress, and automating the grind portion of the game, that got me thinking of what Lode Wars would look like as an RTS, where you merely guided a fixed number of units and gave them directions. That could really work out rather well.
Lummox JR wrote:
Lode Wars is my all-time favorite BYOND game.

Mine too - it might sound like I'm dumping on the game, but it's on the top of my favorites list.

It's a pity it suffers from a savefile bug that wipes characters unintentionally because that's really its only down side.

I was wondering why my progress vanished like that!

[Back in the day, when BYOND was more popular] It was a riot.

I wish I could have been there! A 10-20 player team would be awesome.

Since your mention of Dwarf Fortress, and automating the grind portion of the game, that got me thinking of what Lode Wars would look like as an RTS, where you merely guided a fixed number of units and gave them directions. That could really work out rather well.

This is my thinking too. ;) Granted, I'm going to try to preserve some of the RPG-esque feel. I think that's what Dwarf Fortress did that's so exceptional - they went beyond RTS and into worldliness.

Vermolius wrote:
Are you asian?

Heh, no. I'm curious why you think that. Did I mess up my grammar somewhere conspicuous? That's what I get for writing this at 1am in the morning.
I encountered Leftrey's Lode Runners.

Please, take a moment to examine the link.
Typically a team didn't have as many as 10 people unless you had about 20 playing and it was a 2-team round. More often you'd have a team with maybe half a dozen people, but that would still be enough for serious action.
Vermolius wrote:
I encountered Leftrey's Lode Runners.

Please, take a moment to examine the link.

Fixed - thanks.

Lummox JR wrote:
More often you'd have a team with maybe half a dozen people, but that would still be enough for serious action.

I can believe it - from what I've seen, there's definitely a lot of cool weapons and devices laying around, and the ore could change hands in such a way as to lead to some very interesting exchanges.
As an example of a typical game, SOP for any team is to dig out an area around the ore box for easy delivery, and then deploy 3 energy fences forming a protected rectangle. If the team has them available, alarms can be deployed as well, and especially mines. A guard is helpful (and for some teams necessary), since the fences are vulnerable to attack and some enemies can still penetrate the fence with enough equipment. Some teams would even take the sneaky tactic of running a last-minute raid just to empty the opponent's ore box so their team could win the round.

My personal favorite raiding technique is to go in heavily armored and carrying a personal teleporter. If the other team isn't watching or can't get to me in time, I can get away with a ton of loot. On some occasions teams have even set up teleporter pads outside their opponent's ore box.

In general though I'm more of a prospector than a raider. I prefer the fun of mining out a huge strike of necite or kaburite.
One of the interesting things I had going on in Project Shock was a set of automated defense turrets. The turrets can only see that which is illuminated by lighting.

Renegade players had no luminosity and had the capability to fire bolts of electricity that would short circuit devices briefly. A light which has been short circuited throws no illumination.

Much potential for awesome stealth operations there.

Another thing Project Shock had that I think Lode Wars could have done: you could queue movement in advance.
No, you didn't fix it.
Vermolius wrote:
No, you didn't fix it.

Could you be more specific? Maybe you need to refresh your page, because right now the Lode Wars link is going right to http://www.byond.com/games/Leftley/LodeWars and that's correct and working.

It is different than the "live" tab, but I decided not to go there because the live tab is boring.
Geldonyetich wrote:
Could you be more specific? Maybe you need to refresh your page, because right now the Lode Wars link is going right to http://www.byond.com/games/Leftley/LodeWars and that's correct and working.

The link DOES work but that was never the problem.
Vermolius wrote:
The link DOES work but that was never the problem.

Oh, I see it now, heh.

Funny enough, I caught myself calling the game Lode Runners several times. I thought I corrected them all, but I missed the important one.

I see I also messed up the author's name. Leftley, not Leftrey. Tsk, way to honor the fellow's achievement. Well, I suppose I can console myself with the knowledge that lots of people will misspell my name when referring to my game too. ;P
Gotta have a game first.
True enough. The workshop may be littered with the shattered remains of a dozen past projects, but until I've delivered one, nobody has reason to notice.
Lummox JR wrote:
When Lode Wars was first released I think the pager had a lot more activity, and so this game got a large number of players on a consistent basis. On a good Saturday night you could expect maybe 15-20 players. If you had large teams you could let each teammate focus on whatever they did best: Exploring, hauling, raiding, or guarding. Communication was crucial, especially if you were trying to direct someone to an ore deposit so they could help you dig it out or haul it away. Most games I got to focus on the fun of exploring for ore and bringing back the big hauls, but occasionally I'd sidetrack into defending the base, and even now and then I felt like risking a raid on the enemy base just to see what I could do. It was a riot.

Since your mention of Dwarf Fortress, and automating the grind portion of the game, that got me thinking of what Lode Wars would look like as an RTS, where you merely guided a fixed number of units and gave them directions. That could really work out rather well.

I miss some of those games. They only happened back when I had first joined BYOND and it was a blast.

It's such a shame that it never happens anymore.

I also think that it's a shame that Leftley left the community. He was one of my favorite developers, and his last project before leaving was pretty awesome.
That's why I think we need to get a few people together and reprogram the game. It's not THAT complex of a game when you look at it from a programming standpoint.

The issue would be graphics, it's so hard finding someone to help with those.
The last time I talked to Leftley I asked him what he'd think of someone reprogramming the game from scratch but using his original graphics. He seemed amenable to the idea, which I took as a tacit go-ahead. From what he said then, I think as long as it's understood that the remake is not the same game (as such) and he's given full credit for the icons it would be fine.