Schnitzelnagler wrote:

If it is not too much of an effort and it means that Stephen001 can show the page off to his colleagues, I'm fully in favour of customisation.

The catch 22 to your argument is. He shows them this website that's all silvery and pretty. Then they go to the URL themselves at home, and the see the site as is pretty much "wtfuzzle is this? Maybe I got the URL wrong."

They go back tomorrow and double check, he shows them that same silvery sleek layout. And they take extra special care and rewrite the domain letter for letter, in big letters, in permanent marker on solid gold paper and return home. Once again to see the site in it's current form.

Unless he buys them memberships and presets their accounts with his sleek layout design, there's no way they'll stick around (if they are how he implies and judgemental of the website itself).

But then of course, what about their friends who they share it with during that week, etc etc. There is no distinct line for such a feature.

When given a choice between paying for a website they like the look of or using one they don't like for free, particularly when they have no attachment to the content on the site (new user), they will obviously just go somewhere else. If that's a determining factor for them, which I think it is. You can quite happily charge $18 for functionality that is ... so so on the website when dealing with people like yourself, Tiberath etc, because it's not about the product you're receiving really. But that's not a selling model for a product (which is what you need if you want to sell to new users quickly), that's more of a thank you package for a donation.

I don't think it is, nor does it account for casual recommendation, which I see to be more common. It's entirely impractical as a marketing tool, because having a website you don't feel is childish is not a perk, it's a basic requirement. These people typically frequent a few sites regardless of style, for nostalgia or connections dating back to a time they were open minded about this kind of thing. Aside from that, they will stumble across or otherwise casually browse mostly colour neutral sites with obvious "Web 2.0" polish, that give off a either a very neutral or nice first impression when looked at.

It usually takes 2 or 3 months at least for most to settle on a clear cut opinion of the products and services offered by BYOND I'd guess, considering how not compelling the selling point is. You're attempting to charge people for something they've come to expect as standard from professional websites, a style they like. That is not a product nor is it value for money for most people. I suspect very few new users here buy inside of the first week, and I don't expect just because there is more easily accessible income for the people I speak to that they are going to be any less footloose with something that has no instant hook as a product.

The style would need to change for all, or might as well be not at all. I feel it's a branding issue, and this is why it won't change. Branding is heavily based in opinion and mine doesn't match the staff's.

On the contrary, I value the first impression very highly. If I didn't I wouldn't be hoping that in 10 years time BYOND would present a more professinal image.

If I take a BMW logo and put it on a Skoda, would you really mistake it for a BMW?

Stephen001 wrote:

The style would need to change for all, or might as well be not at all.

BYOND's image is not a member perk, it is a requirement of BYOND as a marketing force and a business. This is exactly why you will get the pager with a BYOND game 9 times out of 10, why key registration is on the site, why it pops up the site after install, why you get DreamMaker in the Linux install etc.

There are certain things that make a strong brand, the characteristics vary according to the product / company / group of products, however the brand is made around certain attributes.

BYOND's brand, it's recognition on the web is down to colours and style. I know this, and Tom knows this. PHPBB? Doesn't really build brand recognition out of colours and style, hence they change their default theme every version and you can skin it beyond all recognition. BYOND? Does build out of colours and style. Apple? Does. Dyson? Not colours, but certainly style, hence the Dyson knock-off products which look very similar. BMW? Shape and trim. Steam? Shape and trim.

This is precisely why we have differing opinions on colours, theme and layout, and why (aside from when I'm asked of my opinion, such as here) I won't drive for a change in this. We're at an impasse on it, it's been explored in the past, and my opinion sits on the wrong side of the decision-making fence. This is not to say the site is static forever and there will be no changes to style, navigation etc ever. It just won't be happening in a big wholesale way for a long time.

I am becoming very frustrated at this back and forth, because it's ultimately academic in nature. It is a hope and not an action precisely because I know it's a blocked issue in the sense my opinion sits at odds with Tom's. Sure, give members the ability to theme the site if you like, but it won't change the base issue I see, that in 10 years time I was hoping would be "fixed". Because there is no middle ground on this, no happy compromise. One of us has to just put up with the decision and when it's your tastes against the guy who owns the business, you are the one putting up with it.

Is it so hard to answer "What can we do to make it easier to navigate"?

Stephen001 wrote:

Stephen001 wrote:

The style would need to change for all, or might as well be not at all.

BYOND's image is not a member perk, it is a requirement of BYOND as a marketing force and a business.

Schnitzelnagler wrote:

Stephen001 wrote:

(...) having a website you don't feel is childish is not a perk, it's a basic requirement.

Schnitzelnagler wrote:

(...)if custom CSS layout is successful, I'm sure that BYOND would allow for standard themes to choose from, even for free accounts(...)

BYOND has to pull off a tricky business. It should attract players and developers alike and not only that, but a broad player base at that.
I doubt that you could ever manage to find one layout to fit all of them, since the preferences and recommendations on the platform are much too different.


Stephen001 wrote:

BYOND's brand, it's recognition on the web is down to colours and style.

How so?
If I see a BYOND logo, listed on an external page, I know that it refers to BYOND. I don't need any colour or style to realize that. Just like I would with Google, Apple, or whoever else.
If what you say is true, then every guild and even every single hub with a custom CSS would mean it is no longer associated with BYOND and they all should share the same layout.


Stephen001 wrote:

PHPBB? Doesn't really build brand recognition out of colours and style

You say that a forum does not establish it's branding through style and layout and yet we are discussing on a forum. The fact that it is not powered by PHP, but by C++/Perl in the back-end should hardly kill the point?


Stephen001 wrote:

Apple? Does.

http://www.ultra-case.com/products_iphone3g.php
It is the apple logo that makes you think on apple, not the shape, form, or colour of product, else, how could they have an iPod, a MacBook and iMac, which differ significantly in shape and offer different colours?


Stephen001 wrote:

I am becoming very frustrated at this back and forth, because it's ultimately academic in nature

I am sorry, I did not know. I'm going to stop after this reply. I did not mean to annoy or offend you.

Im not sure exactly where I see byond in 10 years, but I wonder if Byond would increase the amount of users by advertising their software as a free download to game programming classes in highschools across wherever their central base is located, and with that they could give links and a few guides to a first game. Im not sure if this would exactly make a profit but it would increase the amount of users...

Sariat wrote:

Where do you see BYOND in 10 years?

I'm torn between realism and optimism here, so I'd guess any mixture between what BYOND currently is and what I'd want it to be in a couple of years could be inserted here.
I'm not as negative as others though, so I see BYOND as still working and as having been worked on massively (thanks to Tom and Lummox JR again for everything they already did and to Dan for the foundation).


Sariat wrote:

Where would you LIKE to see BYOND in 10 years?

Well, what I'd like to see is BYOND (as company) having a lot more options in the future, which means they'd have to develop methods of generating the revenue to fund the efforts.

1. Increasing the profit per customer ratio
   BYOND has and likely will keep a special sort of customer that comes along with the target audience and it's creations. A good deal of these customers has little money to spend (scholars, students) and does not value expressing gratitude for somebody's work too high (ripping), which means the membership per customers rate is likely tricky to increase.
   
   
   • Customizable Splash Screen including optional advertisement
   • 
     It would be neat to have means of adjusting the Splash Screen more towards your games general theme and to have an option for displaying adverts to non members, like a vast amount of flash games does (BYOND would supply the advertisement and handle everything, for a share of the profit and the money would be deposited in your BYOND walltet to avoid micro payment).
   • Optional In-game advertisement
   • 
     Similar to the idea above, BYOND would handle the interaction between advertisers and you (like Google Ads) and provide the developer with functionality to earn a little on non subscriber/non members.
     Both could help to finance a shell server and to purchase your BYOND membership.
   • Seek alternatives for buying a membership
   • 
     While there is much scam in offers such as used by CasualCollective, they manage to hire multiple developers and rent a new office in the USA together with moving there, which suggest a rather impressive conversion rate. Maybe one could find different providers (or negotiate with them for a no scam warranty section), or find different ways of earning a BYOND membership all-together.
2. Work on a better retention value for the product
   
   • Improved first impression
   • 
     Reworking the start page to feature different media, such as video and to showcase quality products seems to be planned most fortunately, as is a new DM guide (thanks for the effort on the topic, despite the marginal support AZA!).
   • Themes
   • 
     A picture says a thousand words and nothing suggest new content like a new page layout. Offering different standard themes for different kinds of customer and special event (e.g. Halloween), or even custom layout for members would likely get the webpage a few more hits.
     Not to mention that the guilds could use some changes as well. -Good contest material-
   • Good looking, free art
   • 
     Most of the other providers offer a nice little resource section for their developers. This is where BYOND desperately lacks, but which could help to increase the general quality of games (eye candy wise, at least).
     A contest, or even some hired work would be lovely, but would require money (see above).
3. Long term dedication
   
   • Poll/Surveys
   • 
     Not only could BYOND as for feedback on development and ideas more often, but the guilds could provide an optional survey when joining, so that they might offer a better experience for their clientèle. Breath life into the news and show your users that their opinion is important to you.
   • Contests
   • 
     While there are some guild based contest, BYOND as a company could offer and involve more into getting it's members to help improve the product. Create (inter-)action! Though this would require money for rewards as well.
4. I likely forgot most of what I had on my mind ;)

My hope would be that BYOND could generate enough money to hire/pay some volunteers like Foomer for quality reviews, or AZA for a new guide and maybe even additional full time programmers to first clean up the code, then add an API and keep adding new functionality.
I'd love to have more client sided control, or see others getting happy with a native full screen and pixel movement modus. But getting into detail on these would break the formate of a posting ;)

Edit:
I still have the hope that one day some of the Animé copyright holders would link back to BYOND as sort of 'if you like or Animé, create your own game for free gimmick'.
They could even provide nice graphics for such games, as long as they refrain from taking any subscriptions, the copyright holders should only benefit and BYOND would gain some nice referrals together with a new Wikipedia entry.
If you can't defeat an enemy, build an alliance! ;)

Andre-g1 wrote:

Ryan P wrote:

the source code of all the software released

That will be the age of the BYOND version of Zeta.

I don't think it's so much that BYOND will be replicated, simply because the average moron doesn't have the resources to support it (and it might actually make it hit home what it takes psychologically and financially to run a/this community), but more that the amount of people with the motivation and skill to contribute in BYOND specifically are small in number. I think (and I'm pretty sure it's been said before) that an open source shift would bring little benefit in the long run. Would this bring in some people who would help? Perhaps, but given the manner of clientele BYOND retains, it'd be an uphill battle to draw them in.

Generally I think BYOND would function better with only Tom and Lummox at the helm simply because there's a single cohesive vision for the platform, and if that means remaining closed source, then so be it. The ideas for expanding BYOND cover a vast array of differing viewpoints, and I'm sure that all of those converging in SVN would cause a ton of headache and uproar when things get shaved off.