ID:112265
 
The point here isn't to slam these games. These games are decent, perhaps even good. The problem is that BYOND users have low standards. If you make a game and people say "wow that's amazing", it's not likely you'll be motivated to improve it (even if the game is terrible). Because so many people are quick to say "good job!" and leave it at that, I'm trying to provide the less popular feedback, "good job, but you could do better". I've tried to be as constructive as possible, so I'd appreciate if the comments (if there are any) follow suit.

Decadence

The game is widely praised for its graphical appeal and from seeing the screenshots I understand why. However, after playing the game, I'm a little disappointed. The overall visual appeal depends on more than just the quality of each individual icon, it depends on how they're used. Here are some comments and suggestions on the graphical aspects of the game:

* The game needs 8 directional mobs. Movement looks strange, shooting looks even worse - you can shoot in a direction up to (and sometimes more than) 45 degree off of the way you're facing. Having icons where the mob is facing one direction and shooting in another would be an improvement.

* The mob's movement animation never quite seems right. When you take a single step the feet move too much and too quickly. When you're constantly in motion it should look more like running and less like walking.

* The mob and the camera can get out of sync - the player doesn't stay centered in the client's screen, they kind of wobble around. I'm not sure what you do to manage the camera. Is the mob's pixel_step_size the same as the client's?

* Grenades should travel in arcs and bounce around.

* Tile-based movement means tile-based obstacles. The maps have an oddly organized look because all obstacles have to span whole tiles and meet at nice right angles. The player movement in the 8 directions adds to the odd organization.

Other comments:

It seems odd that players can't move freely while crouching. If someone was shooting at me, I'd tend to stay crouched. I'd probably do a good bit of crawling around on my stomach too (aren't soldiers known for that?).

The game window repositions itself. Unless it was off the edge of the screen when it loaded, I'm not sure why you'd need to do this. Also, the game window can't be resized, 640x480 is small.

The gameplay isn't innovative. An indie game can introduce weird game mechanics that you aren't likely to see in big mainstream titles. If I wanted a typical shooter, I'd play one (ex: Call of Duty). So unless your plan is to make a better shooter than all mainstream games, there's no reason to stick so strictly with tried and true gameplay.


Casual Quest

The last time I really sat down and played this the game changed my class on me and the game became much harder because I lost my ranged attack. I'm not sure what happened or why it happened, but for a game that prides itself on simplicity I was very confused. More explanation would have been helpful.

It would also be nice to have a title bar on the window. Having to press F3 or F4 to open the menu, then having to use the arrow keys or mouse to change the screen size is a hassle. Having a title bar would have avoided all that.

A pause button would be nice too. An action game with no pause button isn't casual =)


NEStalgia

The gameplay is indeed a mix of Dragon Warrior and World of Warcraft, but if you could mix the best elements of those two games, who would pick the combat system from DW over WoW? Combat in WoW has many factors - party composition, positioning, overall strategy, level, equipment, character customization, etc.

NEStalgia's simple combat system means that many things from WoW just aren't possible. There's no fight where you kite the boss around the room because there's no movement in combat. What could make combat more interesting is the character customization, but in this regard the game is also more like DW than WoW - very few equipment slots, no talents for character customization, etc.

The greatest extent of customization is party formation, but with three characters in a party the number of possible combinations is very limited. It's hard to have fights where a certain class is essential - there's no way to hire NPCs (that I'm aware of) and the time needed to level up a character means its not trivial to say "oh, I'll play a ranger then if that's what we need".

The simplistic graphics are part of the retro motif but they're a little too simple. Dragon Warrior had neat character sprites, these are just stick figures with clothes on top. Everyone looks the same. I expect more from the tilesets too. The SNES and Gameboy remakes have some nice visual touches that show that using a limited resolution doesn't have to scream "made in 1988". Lots of modern games have a retro look without being overly simple (ex: flixel.org has many examples).


Conclusion

Hopefully you can find ways to apply the same ideas to other games. Perhaps the most important point is that while these games are well made, the gameplay isn't very innovative. armorgames.com is full of simple games with innovative twists. Oh, and those games have been played milions of times. Sure, people expect games to be well made, but they're also looking for something new. They're playing the games because of those innovative twists. You don't have to make the biggest, most epic game, you just need a good, clever idea.
Casual Quest does actually have a pause feature (it's Shift + P if I remember right). :P
I agree.
The game needs 8 directional mobs. Movement looks strange, shooting looks even worse - you can shoot in a direction up to (and sometimes more than) 45 degree off of the way you're facing. Having icons where the mob is facing one direction and shooting in another would be an improvement.

This is a design choice. It's not a dual joystick shooter, you're not able to run full speed in one direction while shooting in the other. Rather than having a field of vision, you have a field of fire. You can't shoot outside of the field of fire while moving, but if you're standing still your character automatically faces in that direction and you start shooting.

Also, bumping the character sprite from 4 directions up to 8 would essentially double the cost of the icon. Every single weapon would have to have new frames added and if I'm already going that far I might as well go all the way and add diagonal death animations as well.

The mob's movement animation never quite seems right. When you take a single step the feet move too much and too quickly. When you're constantly in motion it should look more like running and less like walking.

If BYOND had a simple and speedy solution for dynamically changing frame delays I'd look into tweaking it, but as it stands it's just adding unnecessary overhead to an already stressed network. It's a purely visual nitpick and doesn't effect actual gameplay.

The mob and the camera can get out of sync - the player doesn't stay centered in the client's screen, they kind of wobble around. I'm not sure what you do to manage the camera. Is the mob's pixel_step_size the same as the client's?

It's a BYOND bug which has been around for as long as I can remember. Unfortunately it's been deferred for the time being.

Grenades should travel in arcs and bounce around.

I've been meaning to do something like that, I just suck at math.

Tile-based movement means tile-based obstacles. The maps have an oddly organized look because all obstacles have to span whole tiles and meet at nice right angles. The player movement in the 8 directions adds to the odd organization.

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at.

It seems odd that players can't move freely while crouching. If someone was shooting at me, I'd tend to stay crouched. I'd probably do a good bit of crawling around on my stomach too (aren't soldiers known for that?).

You can actually slide along cover, there's mention of it in the F1 Help Guide. You just can't do it out in the open.

The game window repositions itself. Unless it was off the edge of the screen when it loaded, I'm not sure why you'd need to do this. Also, the game window can't be resized, 640x480 is small.

It's set to load in the position it last remembers being in.

The gameplay isn't innovative. An indie game can introduce weird game mechanics that you aren't likely to see in big mainstream titles. If I wanted a typical shooter, I'd play one (ex: Call of Duty). So unless your plan is to make a better shooter than all mainstream games, there's no reason to stick so strictly with tried and true gameplay.

I haven't seen many cover-based 2D shooters. I know for sure there are at least fewer of them than there are indie 2D sidescrollers.
I think that Silk forgot to read the first paragraph. Listen dude, this stuff is criticism, it's opinions. Isn't that what you want? Don't you want opinions? Don't you want criticism to help your game grow? Apparently not if you're going to call what he is saying as "troll bait". I could grasp what he was meaning when he said "these are just stick figures with clothes on top". And it's not troll bait, it's just honest criticism, although I would replace stick figures with a base.
Silk, this isn't an attempt to stir up drama, it's honest criticism. Look at Dragon Warrior sprites - the wizard looks like a feeble old wizard and the soldier looks like a tough guy, they aren't just the same basic shape wearing different shirts.

SuperAntx wrote:
I haven't seen many cover-based 2D shooters. I know for sure there are at least fewer of them than there are indie 2D sidescrollers.

I'm not sure that cover is enough to call it innovative. You can hide behind cover in almost all shooters. Some unique modes of play would be nice.
Honest =/= negative. The fact that your reviews aren't positive ones don't make them any more credible than someone who made reviews praising these three games. Most of your complaints are pretty trivial too. Stick figures? Not wanting to press F3 or F4? 8 Directional mobs? Find some real issues with the games.
EmpirezTeam wrote:
Honest =/= negative. The fact that your reviews aren't positive ones don't make them any more credible than someone who made reviews praising these three games. Most of your complaints are pretty trivial too. Stick figures? Not wanting to press F3 or F4? 8 Directional mobs? Find some real issues with the games.

"The problem is that BYOND users have low standards. If you make a game and people say "wow that's amazing", it's not likely you'll be motivated to improve it (even if the game is terrible)."

Seems his intent is to help improve the game, so the "complaints" are actually constructive criticism.

EDIT: This message is to Silk as well.
Forum_account wrote:
Some unique modes of play would be nice.

If you had any ideas I'm listening. Rather than a bunch of little nitpicks I believe there are two major flaws with Decadence.

1) It's multiplayer-only. There's nothing to do offline or by yourself, it's completely reliant on other players being online, which as you can see there rarely are any.

2) There's not much content. Not only are there few people to play with, there's not much to do. There are only three game modes and two maps.

Addressing these two issues would make the game a whole lot better than adding a few directions to the player icon or changing their walk animation would.
The graphics in NEStalgia would look heaps better if SilkWizard actually used the NES palette.
I'd mostly agree with what Forum_Account says. BYOND users always have had low standards.
Actually... I don't know if they have low standards... Just... DIFFERENT standards. I once made a terrible game. It was poorly designed and made. Poor balance, horribly buggy, not really a good game in any way. Infact, it was so terrible, it was simply easier to remake it than to try and fix it.
When I remade it, the remade version was superior in every single way. This isn't even opinion, it is fact. But people were very resistant to moving to the new version, with some even saying the new version was totally crap and they would never even dream of playing it. (With at least one person making up blatant lies about the game)

BYOND users don't have low standards... They have inverted standards. To them bad is good, and good is bad.
The peoples republic of china wrote:
The graphics in NEStalgia would look heaps better if SilkWizard actually used the NES palette.

I find that funny coming from someone who uses upscaled 32x32 sprites for what should be 16x16 icons.
EmpirezTeam wrote:
Honest =/= negative. The fact that your reviews aren't positive ones don't make them any more credible than someone who made reviews praising these three games. Most of your complaints are pretty trivial too. Stick figures? Not wanting to press F3 or F4? 8 Directional mobs? Find some real issues with the games.

Thats the point, there aren't massive flaws (aside from gameplay shortcomings). It sounds like nitpicking, but if the game is decent it should have only minor issues. I'm not going to bother saying "oh this feature is excellent" because its probably been said before and it doesn't improve the game.
SuperAntx wrote:
The peoples republic of china wrote:
The graphics in NEStalgia would look heaps better if SilkWizard actually used the NES palette.

I find that funny coming from someone who uses upscaled 32x32 sprites for what should be 16x16 icons.

But that has no bearing on the actual appearance of the graphics. They're going to look the same either way; how is it relevant to this conversation?
Being such a stickler for NES restrictions I'm amused by the fact you don't actually follow them yourself.
SuperAntx wrote:
Being such a stickler for NES restrictions I'm amused by the fact you don't actually follow them yourself.

The problem is that Silk is trying to emulate the style of NES graphics, which he is not going to accomplish unless he uses the NES palette. Upscaling graphics has nothing to do with anything.
D4RK3 54B3R wrote:
For example: there is a pause button in Casual Quest, and anyone who has played for even 10 minutes would know that.

Shift+P is not an acceptable pause button (I've played the game, and didn't know that was even there). For a game that seems to be trying to look professional, it shouldn't have wonky controls, broken pixel movement, a pop-up for chat, and a file menu on top of the gameplay area. Most of those issues could be resolved by a simple HUD menu brought up by pressing ESC, just like every real game offers.
Though I do agree with most of FA's complaints here, I think he's nitpicking on a lot of the smaller issues, instead of the much larger ones that are bringing the games down. IE: Casual Quest's limit to attacking in cardinal directions, and its complete lack of audio.
I guess the term "review" is causing confusion. I'm not reviewing these games in the most conventional sense. I'm not evaluating the games and giving them numerical scores as a service to BYOND game players to help direct them towards the good games (people already know about them). I'm reviewing these games as a developer with a more critical eye. Either BYOND developers have low standards and lack the critical eye entirely or they suppress it because they consider any negative feedback (no matter how constructive) is "trolling", or "drama", or "flaming". If people aren't critical of games, BYOND will always be a collection of sub-par games.

My review of Casual Quest isn't brief because I found a few minor issues and stopped (though the class-change issue really ruined it for me), the review is brief because the game is solid. I don't have to play through 100 waves to see that the game is good, but I also don't have to play that much to realize that the idea of simplicity was taken a little too far.

SilkWizard wrote:
I've played enough Decadence to know that your review of that game is incredibly off base and uninformed

This is more dramatic and flame-baity than anything I've said. SuperAntx might have justifications for why Decadence is the way it is (ex: 4 directional mobs instead of 8), but he doesn't seem to think that my comments are "incredibly off base". As I said in the post, "I've tried to be as constructive as possible, so I'd appreciate if the comments (if there are any) follow suit.". I'll delete any comment that can't do that. The idea here is to show that developers can look critically at a game and be constructive, but being quick to label people as "trolling" or "flaming" isn't helping.

SuperAntx wrote:
Forum_account wrote:
Some unique modes of play would be nice.
If you had any ideas I'm listening.

If I had ideas, I'd have made the game myself. Here's what I've come up with:

Modes of play that are more map-dependent. Deathmatches are deathmatches, the map is necessary but generally irrelevant. Capture the flag is better, the map's layout effects your strategy more. I think Unreal Tournament had a mode called "assault", one team is the attackers, the other is defending. It's not a unique mode of play, but it depends highly on the map. Two assault maps could be almost like different games. If you had map-dependent modes of play, people may have played games like it before, but they haven't played your maps before.

Different character abilities. Games already have this (ex: team fortress) but you have the freedom to create abilities and classes not seen in other games.

This last idea is probably the hardest to apply to Decadence: Have the gameplay be just one aspect of the game. For example, the space game I was working on would have shooter-style combat when your ship is boarded. The gameplay would be simple (run around, click to shoot) and wouldn't be very interesting on its own, but it becomes more interesting because it's part of a larger game. After the battle, even if you win, you have to get by with a damaged ship and wounded crew.

Also, bumping the character sprite from 4 directions up to 8 would essentially double the cost of the icon.

Maybe you could make the legs and torso separate so the gun can face 8 directions. Though if you're going that far, it doesn't seem like much more work to make them fully 8 directional. This obviously doesn't change how the game works, it was just an unexpected visual miscue.

It's a BYOND bug which has been around for as long as I can remember. Unfortunately it's been deferred for the time being.

The effect was very noticeable. Maybe it's time for a bump. The staff tends to be pretty disconnected from BYOND game development (ex: they needed a voting system to know what features people want) so I wouldn't be surprised if they just didn't realize how annoying this problem can be.

I've been meaning to do something like that [grenades traveling in arcs], I just suck at math.

I remember you asking about a proc to calculate arcs. I guess this was why.

The comment about grenades and some of the other comments were hinting at pixel movement. I don't expect you'd change the game, but developers should realize that the embracing of tile-based movement is a quirk of BYOND. If I knew nothing about Decadence and saw a screenshot, I wouldn't assume it had tile-based movement. People who are less familiar with BYOND will be less likely to accept this.
I haven't read through the comments, so I apologize if these have already been addressed.

Forum_account wrote:
The mob and the camera can get out of sync - the player doesn't stay centered in the client's screen, they kind of wobble around.

This is a BYOND issue.


I was very confused. More explanation would have been helpful.

There is a help file explaining everything you need to know.


Having to press F3 or F4 to open the menu, then having to use the arrow keys or mouse to change the screen size is a hassle.

Why are you using your arrow keys to navigate the menu? And if you find it such a bother to keep opening it up, why not just leave it open?


A pause button would be nice too.

There is a pause button.


Combat in WoW has many factors - party composition, positioning, overall strategy, level, equipment, character customization, etc.

All of these play a huge role in NEStalgia. There are multiple paths you can take your character, with moon blessings, milestone bonuses, seeds and boosters to increase your stats, and different equipment to further optimize your build.


I feel a lot of your arguments are just because you were either lazy or haven't actually played the game.
I, for one, am a huge fan of what you do Forum_account.

I agree with alot of your criticism. Someone has to say it.

Instead of taking this to heart and being mad at him, I say go make your games better. He never said the games were wrongfully praised. He never said they shouldn't be featured. Forum only said there are some issues he would (in his honest opinion) like to see addressed.

Decadence and NEStalgia are two of the best games BYOND has to offer. SuperAntx and Silk Games are two of the premier developers on BYOND. Not to take criticism from someone as accomplished as Forum_account would be upsetting in my opinion.

I hold all three of you in high regards. Look at what each of you have done for BYOND:

Decadence is proof a shooter can be done, and done competently on BYOND. The game play is innovative on this engine and personally, I don't think a first attempt at a shooter could have been done any better. With that said, how about making it that much better? To say a game is complete is simply giving up on it.

NEStalgia is possibly the best polished game on BYOND. It is still amazing to me when I login that a game can be that complete in the DM language. Fantastic work Silk Games! My hat goes off to you.

However, it appears Silk himself is a little full of himself at this time and doesn't take well to criticism. Shame. That's part of the game, bro.

Forum_account has almost single-handedly shown the community a side scroller can be done, and done well. Hats off to you as well. A Miner's Adventure is possibly top three in most polished games.

Tiny Heroes seems to me to be another great installment from you. I can't wait to see it.

Anyway we all need to work together at this point and ensure production of great original games here on BYOND. Especially from possibly the top three production crews on BYOND. I would love to see what you guys could spawn if you were to put your heads together.
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