On a first and general note, it would help your cause if your quotes contained a source. Else, it's tricky to get an idea whom you're replying to in a 'mixed-reply' posting.
Darkjohn66 wrote: no pictures, no convientent layout, no side comments, only 1 or two examples per variable Guides on programming languages rarely contain many a picture (because you won't need pictures of text ;)), other than when handling an IDE interface is concerned, or to display results. Layout and side comments are a rather subjective topic, so I won't comment on them and I think you misunderstand the term example. You seem to think that the guide should list your common Animé implementation, but that is actually bad. Not only is there an incredible amount of usage for a special basic functionality, but by displaying one possible implementation, you limit creativity (as you can clearly see on the rippers). Darkjohn66 wrote: The guide does not have definitions of what each function does, it only explains how to use them in a single situation And that is exactly what a guide should do. In programming, separation of concern is essential and this is reflected by the documentation. The reference provides a detailed interface and the guide showcases some simple usage, leading your first steps. As a beginning programmer, you're supposed to use both and later on only rely on the reference. Darkjohn66 wrote: This book is outdated Given that there are frequent updates, a hard-copy of any guide would always have to become outdated. Either you'd go with the expansive book on demand printing, or you're bound to keep outdated copies of you guide. Darkjohn66 wrote: would impoving the game quality not increase player amounts which would increase $. If it would only be this easy. To improve the quality of games, you'd have to convince people to actually learn. They are not interested in learning though, as what they want is fast and easy fame and success. So, you have to carefully evaluate time and money spent on a project (both are limited resources) against achieved effect. The ratio for an update like isometric graphics is much better than it is for writing a new guide. Darkjohn66 wrote: Not necesarily As long as you know how to ask, you will get a reply. You might not like the reply, because it would only involve more work, but that is a different topic. If you expect to be dished some plug and play source code that you can copy and paste, you're right, you won't get that, since that would be subject to Classified Ads. Darkjohn66 wrote: I have trried to show this to a teacher at my school. They suggested it to students but never herself even tried it out from what i saw Which is why you should not 'show' it to a teacher, but involve the teacher in a discussion on the topic. Ensure that you can elaborate on the benefits of your approach compared to the one used in your school at that time and that you raise solid and valid points only. Darkjohn66 wrote: There could be a membership license You ignored the main point of my response. Why would you use something you'd have to pay for, when you do not use it while it is free? Get them to use it first, then we can discuss any additional fees. Darkjohn66 wrote: var/obj/Macro/Macrobar1/M What you are looking for is an implementation detail, rather than explanation on basic functionality. As has been discussed above, that is counter-productive. Darkjohn66 wrote: Why is the vocabulary here so complicated? If you go with a specific subject, you have to learn the terminology applied in this subject. Assigning names is a common strategy to avoid having to get down to lengthy descriptions whenever you want to reference something. While you had to learn the term 'bridge', as soon as you knew it, you could refer to the concept without the default fall-back of describing. Darkjohn66 wrote: Look at Masterdan, one of Byonds greatest. No comment other than, 'Gosh'. | |
Darkjohn66 wrote:
Reply to all who beleive a Tutor isnt as useful  | |
Nadrew wrote:
Masterdan isn't related to Tom at all. He's also far from one of the greatest. Then this video lies @ then end 0.0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=647UIWafIMo&feature=related | |
Jeff8500 wrote:
Zaole wrote: Eugenics is never funny. | |
Darkjohn66 babbled:
Look at Masterdan, one of Byonds greatest. From what I know his Cousin is Tom. ha! you made cola snort from my nose. but seriously, as mentioned, there are several built-in, steadily updated sources for learning BYOND right here on this website. the moment BYOND gets updated, a printed book becomes outdated. best to leave the resources online, where everyone can get the most out of them. | |
I don't think the problem newbies have is with the language, it's grasping programming logic and obtaining the ability to creatively apply the tools available to them. They simply blame BYOND because it's there when they encounter these problems.
The issues the poster is having is largely related to the inability to apply a standard function to varied outcomes. I had this problem with bitwise math -- I knew base two and how to convert it to other bases, I understood the math concepts, but I didn't know what the hell I could use it for. This problem presents itself quickly to someone who's just learning to program for the basest of concepts. They look in the reference (which, like any reference, I believe can only be fully understood by someone mildly proficient with the language) and see that findtext will grab characters out of a string, but it doesn't occur to them that they can use it to determine if the character is in a jutsu just by checking the icon state, instead of declaring a float number just to set it to 1/0 based on jutsuness. The problem is, I don't think there's any effective way of teaching these sorts of divergent thinking tactics, you pretty much have to be predisposed to think that way. | |
Darkjohn66 wrote:
I want to be able to sit down with a book at a local library and quietly read a book with pen and paper, and learn about each code part whilst taking notes, then after studying for a few weeks be able to start writing code. There is such a book. Do a forum search for the Blue Book. You're not going to find it in any libraries though. <font color=green>2</font color=green> I'm sure there are many people that would take you up on this. Just be careful about who you take up for this though. Many people think they're good but aren't quite as good as they think they are. I would take you up on it if I had plenty of extra time, but as it is, when I finally get time I want to finally work on some of my own things. Byond could be spread to schools! This has been talked about before, and Tom has encouraged people to do this. Some people have even gotten their teachers to look into it. I don't think there was much success in this. In my opinion, which I trust you would most likley beleive is true, is that Byond cannot be learned without prior knowledge of another language I wouldn't say that it cannot be learned without prior programming knowledge, but having prior experience certainly does make it a heck of a lot easier. If you don't have that and you don't have any good sources or people to help, it is certainly a lot of hard work to get anywhere at all, probably more than most people think is worth it. If there were to be a Byond book AZA is trying to make a new edition of the Blue Book. , it should have lots of pitcures, and it should not only explain WHAT each character does, but a list of the top situations it is used in, the definition in English It doesn't quite work that way, if I understand you properly. People need to learn programming logic, then the rest follows much easier. What we need is some good programming logic articles. I tried to start writing one once upon a time, but like most of my other projects, it never got finished. But, not only should it have side comments like this. Each word should have a glossary dictionary definition in the back of the book! Also, another big part of Byond is iconning. There could be examples of close up images on how to icon with the different values. Also, the Byond skin currently is lacking in explination.And there should be explinations of how to stick images next to text. Check out the Byond reference. It's not completely what you're talking about, but it is basically a dictionary of Byond's features. Also, it would be great advertising if you were to reach out with your program to schools. You could sell licenses for the school to use Byond, which would greatly increase funds. And the more funds, the better Byond gets! That's not going to happen. People are not going to pay to use Byond, especially since it's otherwise completely free. | |
Darkjohn66 wrote:
In my opinion, which I trust you would most likley beleive is true, is that Byond cannot be learned without prior knowledge of another language I had absolutely zero knowledge of anything programming related when I started in DM. And to toot my own horn, I like to think I'm reasonably fair at the language now. The closest thing I had to programming under my belt when I started was a basic concept of HTML. and owning a book of information is much more useful than scanning forums or looking at printed out papers. I learned with printed out pieces of paper, occasional parts of the guide (one day I'll finish reading it, I swear), the reference (programmers best friend is always the language reference) and help from peers (for those really tricky situations where you just can't think). I learned the concepts of the language quickly, and over the course of several years, defined my style and methods. Much like every other fair DM programmer 'round here. DM introduced me to the world of programming, and I succeeded without a physical book or a paid tutor. Simply put, DM isn't hard to learn on your own, but like everything in life, it requires effort. Programming in any language, especially when you're a beginner, takes a lot of effort. And when people who aren't willing to put in this time and effort run into a snag, they blame the language, the resources or the people who can help them. And I started DM when I was 14 going 15. If I was that young and able to get it down, there's no reason anyone else can't. | |
I'd done some BASIC programming (As in, programming in BASIC, not simple programming. Although it was pretty simple) before I hit BYOND, but DM was the first language I did anything serious in, and the language I actually learnt to program in, versus creating simple Snake games with a lot of trial-and-error, consulting of the reference, and help from Dad.
And I mostly learned by screwing around, seeing what worked and what didn't, asking questions on the forums (Often dumb), and reading the (online) version of the Guide. I was pretty young, too - My key was made in September 2002, which would put me at 13. | |
Each person has a different learning style, I personally learn better by having someone sit down and explain things to me instead of reading a book or guide. But since there are only the references/guide/etc online and that old book, I don't really have much of a choice and learn online.
@Darkjohn66: It would be nice to have some of the things you mentioned but we all can't have things the way we want them. Get a few snacks and drinks and continue reading the guide and looking at references, if still unsure of anything just ask around the forums for help. =] | |
Jp wrote:
And I mostly learned by screwing around, seeing what worked and what didn't, asking questions on the forums (Often dumb), and reading the (online) version of the Guide. I was pretty young, too - My key was made in September 2002, which would put me at 13. :D that is exactly how i learn to start coding | |
Darkjohn66 wrote:
i think this post is almost basically over but i think it'd be useful to archive it Post become "archived" after a year has passed after its last post. | |
Darkjohn66 wrote:
i think this post is almost basically over but i think it'd be useful to archive it I bought the book a while back. Since then I've learned a ton. Who cares if it's outdated, atleast now I can look at code and actually read it. And the biggest advantage of all "its in my hand!". I can look back and easily reference to it. I am not grounded to a computer screen, I can read the book in the comfort of my own bed! I am currently on chapter 7. People don't realize it but the blue book (DM guide) is like a childrens book. It's only 190 pages!. The books I had to deal with in college were gigantic 1000 paged books. Of course reading was optional and I could only make it to 250 pages for both books I bought. The only thing I really got out of my college courses was actually understanding how things like iteration worked for {i=n:i<n:i++}; and a bit of control flow/data abstraction.(comfort when reading code) I was able to trace functions that were called from other functions. Of course I was introduced to a couple of indepth things happening that DM does for you (but this is irrelevant). When I went back into trying to learn DM I realized how easy it was in comparison. It was merely a matter of learning about accessibility and references. What can call and be derived from what. Before you get a book. Get a game plan. Not many people like to study so no ones going to do it all in one day. Discipline yourself, read the book for 1 hour everyday before you go to sleep for example. You'll have read 10 pages, within two weeks you'll be finished. Embrace every individual page and don't leave the chapter until you thoroughly understand everything. Write down or remember all the concerns you have, then come to the forums or chatters to ask for help on understanding the group of aspects (you want to kill a bunch of birds with 1 stone and save time). Don't focus so much on the functions in general, focus more on the little things like "what are the circumstances when I am aloud to do this and that". That is really whats important when you want to be a programmer that is capable of compiling his own code. I have 0 experience(I have barely exercised) and like Soldier said we all have different learning habits. I would rather read and theorize about programming (I love going to bed with that tangling feeling) then exercise random things and get tutored. This is different in Math, I cannot read a calculus book to save my life I would need to get tutored. | |
Hulio-G wrote:
I bought the book a while back. Since then I've learned a ton. Who cares if it's outdated, atleast now I can look at code and actually read it. And the biggest advantage of all "its in my hand!". I can look back and easily reference to it. I am not grounded to a computer screen, I can read the book in the comfort of my own bed! I have a laptop and a desktop with two monitors. Reading online guides and referencing them is of absolutely no issue to me at all. My code is on the main monitor, and the reference is on the secondary monitor just a short turn of the head away. (Or rather, that's how I'd like it to be. Most of the time Chatters or IU is focused on the secondary monitor. =$) | |
I actually wouldn't mind buying one of those old books. It could help me during my train rides to school. I'm just not sure about one thing, I know I have to paypal some money to [email protected] but where do I have to message Tom leaving my address info? Hopefully he reads this and lets me know. I think I have to send it in addition to the money via paypal but I just want to make sure =]
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BxS0ldi3R wrote:
where do I have to message Tom leaving my address info? As far as I understood him, to the support. Be aware that it (sadly) is US only though. Tom wrote[link]: If you send a message to support with your address and paypal $5 to [email protected] (for shipping), I'll send you an old one. USA only though, because I don't want to wait in line at the post office. | |
Look at Masterdan, one of Byonds greatest. From what I know his Cousin is Tom. And look @ him, one of the greatest coders on Byond.